Discussion All Areas Of Systematic Theology
1. The three parts combination in Paul is death, sin, and Law (I Cor. 15; Rom. 5, etc.), correct? Without Law, sin has no power, and with no power death has no sting. Where, then, did death and sin enter? Through Adam - without Law? No, he was a lawbreaker. Sin entered in through Law, and death resulted. The Law was added (to what?). If you add something, then something was previously there to which to add, correct?
Whenever I see some passages with “world” (kosmos), it seems to me that it is about the covenant world within heaven and earth, depending on the context. They can be within the Adamic world or the the Mosaic world. It is about to WHOM God revealed to them with his commandments and the covenants. That’s why I wrote in the beginning of this thread about the chosen race.
2. Let’s look into the beginning of the “world”.
Rom. 5:12 because of this, even as through one man (Adam) the sin did enter into the world (kosmos), and through the sin the death; and thus to all men the death did pass through, for that all did sin; 13 for till law sin was in the world (kosmos): and sin is not reckoned when there is not law; 14 but the death did reign from Adam till Moses, even upon THOSE not having sinned in the likeness of Adam's transgression, who is a type of him who is coming.
I’m curious, who were “those” people?
We know that sin entered only in covenant world, but not for those who were/are the outsiders?
3. Let’s look at the time of Noah.
Heb. 11:7 By faith Noah, having been divinely warned concerning the things not yet seen, having feared, did prepare an ark to the salvation of his house, through which he did condemn the world (kosmos), and of the righteousness according to faith he became heir.
2 Peter 2:5 and the old world (kosmos) did not spare, but the eighth person, Noah, of righteousness a preacher, did keep, a flood on the world (kosmos) of the impious having brought.
2 Peter 3:6 through which the then world (kosmos), by water having been deluged, was destroyed; 7 and the present heavens and the earth, by the same word are treasured, for fire being kept to a day of judgment and destruction of the impious men.
This covenant world was destroyed by the flood but notice it says “the present heavens and the earth” would be destroyed by fire. What was it? From Gen 1 or the Mosaic covenant as some believe? Also what does the writer of Hebrews mean when he wrote about Noah "became heir"?
4. Let’s look into Jesus’ time.
Matt. 24:21 for there shall be then great tribulation, such as was not from the beginning of the world (kosmos) till now, no, nor may be.
When was from the beginning of the world?
5. Matt. 25:34 `Then shall the king say to those on his right hand, Come ye, the blessed of my Father, inherit the reign that hath been prepared for you from the foundation of the world
When did the foundation of the world occurred?
6. Luke 11:50 that the blood of all the prophets, that is being poured forth from the foundation of the world (kosmos), may be required from this generation; 51 from the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias, who perished between the altar and the house; yes, I say to you, It shall be required from this generation.
Here’s another one. Notice this says from the blood of Abel since the foundation of the world, right?
7. John 1:29 on the morrow John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, `Lo, the Lamb of God, who is taking away the sin of the world (kosmos).
Does this mean Jesus took away the sin of the covenant world from Adam?
8. Acts 17:24 `God, who did make the world (kosmos), and all things in it, this One, of heaven and of earth being Lord, in temples made with hands doth not dwell, 25 neither by the hands of men is He served -- needing anything, He giving to all life, and breath, and all things;
We know this is talking about Genesis creation but in next few verses are talking God has His purpose to choose His people above all other nations (Deut. 32:7-9).
9. 1 John 4:14 And we -- we have seen and do testify, that the Father hath sent the Son -- Saviour of the world (kosmos).
To whom Jesus saved them? Was it from the time of Adam, Abraham, or Moses?
I am not saying I agree with Taffy. I have no problem with our view from Abraham to Jesus but I am not sure about your view from the period before Abraham. I do not think God dealt with the descendants of Cain, Japheth, Ham, Esau, etc. but these people were among the covenant people. When will you answer these questions?
I am not convinced with your view about excluding those men of faith before Abraham (Gen. 1-11). Enoch and Noah walked with God (Gen. 5:22, 24; 6:9) as Solomon did (2 Chron. 6:16). Jesus and the apostles mentioned about them in the NT. Abraham was blessed because he obeyed God and kept His charge, commandments, statutes, and laws (Gen. 26:4-5). Why Abraham and his descendants should be any different than those people before their time and before the time of Moses? When did the “law” begin? The Bible says sin is the lawlessness (1 John 3:4). Also where there is no law, there also is no violation (Rom. 4:15). The Mosaic Law was added because of the transgressions (Gal. 3:19) until the promised Seed came (Gen. 3:15).
What is your interpretation on Hos. 6:7 (Isa. 43:27)? Did God made a covenant with Adam even in Gen. 1-3 didn’t mention it? God didn’t mention a “covenant” with David when He anointed him to be a king of Israel (2 Sam. 7) but someone wrote in Psalm that God made a covenant with David (Ps. 89:3-4, 20, 28-29, 34-36).
I think the covenant on Sinai was a “re-creation”, a reorganization of the world (kosmos). The Scripture shows that the Ten Commandments/Mosaic Law did not originate with Moses or in his time. The roots of the Mosaic Law go back to creation, i.e. Sabbath (Gen. 2:1; Ex. 20:8-11), forbid adultery (Gen. 39:7-9; Ex. 20:14), forbid idols (Gen. 35:1-4; Ex. 20:3-5), forbid murder (Gen. 4:8-16; Ex. 20:13), clean and unclean animals (Gen. 7:2; Lev. 20:25), offerings and sacrifices (Gen. 4:4; 8:20-21; too many in Mosaic Law), Noah’s nakedness (Gen. 9:22-23; Lev. 18), forbid intermarriage (Gen. 24:3; Deut. 23:2), and some others.
The Genesis story appears to focus primarily upon the covenant lineage that leads from Adam to Noah, Abraham, Moses, and Christ. My position then would be to acknowledge BOTH the local and covenantal aspects of Genesis history. The covenant world was about the covenant lineage within the heavens and earth, the Promised Land, the Law, the covenants and promises. The saints were living in “earthly” bodies but they were looking forward to receive their “heavenly” bodies when they raised and raptured into heaven at the Parousia of Christ in AD 66-70 (1 Cor. 15; Heb. 11).
I believe the Bible is about the beginning and the end of the covenant world as God said, “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end” (Rev. 1:8; 22:13). The prophets use to describe the new creation in contrast with the old creation in Gen. 1-3:
1. First heaven and earth (Gen. 1:1) vs. new heaven and earth (Rev. 21:1)
2. Earth (land) and sea (Gen. 1:9-10) vs. no more sea (Rev. 21:1)
3. Day and night (Gen. 1:14, 16) vs. no more night (Rev. 21:25; 22:5)
4. Sun and moon (Gen. 1:14-16) vs. no need of the sun or moon (Rev. 21:23)
5. Seasons (Gen. 1:14) vs. no more seasons (Rev. 21:23; Gal. 4:9-10)
6. Cursed (Gen 3:17) vs. no more curse (Rev. 22:3)
7. Returned to dust (Gen. 3:19) vs. risen from the dust (Dan. 12:2)
8. Denied the tree of life (Gen. 3:34) vs. given the tree of life (Rev. 2:7; 22:14)
Isaiah’s prophecies also draw from the early chapters of Genesis:
Behold, I will create new heavens and a new earth. The former things will not be remembered, nor will they come to mind. . . . They will not toil in vain [curse on Adam] or bear children doomed to misfortune [curse on Eve]; for they will be a people blessed by the LORD, they and their descendants with them. . . . The wolf and the lamb will feed together, and the lion will eat straw like the ox, but dust will be the serpent’s food [curse on the serpent] . . . . (Isa 65:17, 23-25; Gen 3:14-19).
I think we just need to work on a few areas.
I do think there were two groups of people, those who were in the covenant world/kosmos (God's law, genealogies, covenants, and promises) and those who weren't in it (i.e.the descendants of Cain, Japheth, Ham, Ishmael, Esau, etc.). In other words, Cain was in the covenant world, but he was cast out from the presence of the Lord (Gen. 3:16). Same thing with the Jews who rejected Jesus as their Messiah and they were cast out from the presence of the Lord (1 Thes. 2:9).
As for Ishmael, Esau, Japheth, and Ham, they were in the covenant world but they were not counted as "covenants and promises", just like non-Israelites who were in the Promised Land (i.e. Rahab the harlot). The Bible doesn’t say much about the descendants of Japheth and Ham after the Tower of Babel. They were scattered into their lands (Gen. 10:5, 20, 32; Deut. 32:7-9) but the Lord’s portion was His people, Jacob/Israel is the allotment of His inheritance.
Hi Don, it's great to see you finally acknowledge that there were "two" groups of people, and that Cain, etc. were of the "covenant world". Progress indeed...lol.
Keep pressing in.
Take care, Taffy.
Well I found something what Tim Martin wrote:
"It should also be pointed out that the parallel genealogy for Cain in Gen. 4:17-24 offers no ages at all. Same thing happens again in Gen. 10 (no life spans recorded) and Gen. 11 (life spans recorded for the covenant line).
In Beyond Creation Science we showed how these two contrasting way of recording genealogical material marked off covenant life. Cain's line had no life spans (at death or births) because that line was dead. Contrast that with the line of Seth to Abraham. They have (long) life spans mentioned because they are part of the living, they are the godly line that brings life."
They were indeed the "godly line that" brought "life". To those who were "Dead", i.e. Adam's ENTIRE posterity (Rom 5:12, 14, 1 Cor 15:22). A people that Included Cain.
Right but what I'm trying to say that someone like Cain, Japheth, Ham, Ishmael, Esau, etc. were no longer part of the covenant world when God elected Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob and made the covenants with them over other nations, i.e. Adam's ENTIRE posterity (Gen. 17:4, 15, 16; 26:3, 4; 35:9-11; Deut. 7:1-3, 6-8; 32:7-9; Psalm 147:19-20; Amos 3:1-2; Rom. 9:3-5; Heb, 8:8-13).
Why would anyone living before Abraham be "part of the covenant" when the apostles plalinly stated that "the covenants and promises ... belonged to Israelites according to the flesh" (Romans 9:3-5). Israelites can only be referring to the descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
Also, Paul explained that the "gospel" was originally revealed to "Abraham" (Galatians 3:8) and it was his "descendants" who were to be "blessed" (Romans 4:16-18). This is Paul's exposition of Genesis 12-1-3 where "all the nations (gentiles) of the land" were to be blessed through Abraham.
I understand your point but can you fill me in with some questions for you in the beginning of this thread?
I just want to know if the "world" (kosmos) referring to the covenant people within the Promised Land as you have see the list I put down.
No. The word "kosmos" (world) is referring to the inhabited "world" known to the ancient Israelites and Romans. It is a term that refers to "population" or geography; it is not a covenant word. Moreover, the Roman Empire governed most of the known "world" (hence, there was one "order" (kosmos) that included all the different nations, languages, and laws).
At the time of the apostles, there were Israelites scattered "in every nation (gentiles) under heaven" (Acts 2:5) who spoke the many foreign languages from the regions where they were born (Acts 2:8). The reason the term "kosmos" (world) often includes Israel in scripture is because the Israelites were living throughout the world "order" of the Roman Empire (and not just in the Promised Land).
The word "kosmos" could refer to the covenant people (Israel) living in the Promised Land because the Land was part of the Roman "world". However, the word "covenant people" could only refer to the Israelites (Jeremiah 31:31-34; Matthew 15:24; Romans 9:3-5) since God explicitly gave the promises only to "Abraham and his descendants" (Romans 4:16-18).
Ok, I'll think this over. Thanks.
Can you please check "What was the first heaven and earth passed away in Rev. 21?" thread? Was is from Gen. 1-2 or the Mosaic covenant?
I think the reference to "first heavens and earth" in Revelation 21:1-4 would be referring to both the Law and the Land (because they are inseperable after the Abrahamic promise). Also, the mention of "all things new" and "passing away" and "second death" show that it is referring to those (i.e. all Israelites) who were "under the Law" (Matthew 5:17-20; Romans 3:19-20; 2 Corinthians 5:17-20, etc).
Keep in mind that, when God promised Abraham that the "Land" would belong to him and his "descendants AFTER him" (Genesis 15:18; Genesis 17:5-8), the Law did not come until later and was "added" (Galatians 3:16-22). It's important to account for the fact that those to whom Jesus and the apostles were sent included only "the twelve tribes of Israel" (Matthew 15:24; Matthew 19:28; Revelation 21:12).
Revelation 21:1-4 follows after what is written about the judgement of Israel (according to the Law) in Revelation 20:11-15.