Fulfilled Theology - Preterist
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Questions from Taffy on "The Divine & Human Nature"
Guys,
Taffy gave me a list of questions and some of them I am not sure how to answer. He said go ahead and post here. I thought you might be willing to answer or something to discuss.
1. Do you believe human "nature" was different before Adam's time (4,000BC)? If yes, in what way?
2. Do you believe human "nature" was different after the parousia? e.g. in the children of the "church" or those referred to in Ac 17:26-28 who lived past the judgements? If yes, in what way?
3. Do you believe God's "nature" was different before 4,000BC? If yes, in what way?
4. Do you believe God's "nature" is different after 70AD? If yes, in what way?
5. Scripture says the "Law is spiritual" (Rom 7:14). When did humans first become "spiritual" and accountable for their actions? At Sinai, Ur, the Flood, the Garden, Gobekli Tepe, Africa, etc, etc?
6. Are humans still "spiritual"?
7. Do you believe men "sinned" before 4,000BC? If yes, against what "Law"? and what were their "wages"?
8. Do you believe men "sin" today? If yes, against what "Law"? and what are their "wages"?
9. Did the "righteous requirements" (Rom 2:26) of God's "spiritual" Law cease in 70AD? If yes, please point me to the scriptures. If no, what does that mean?
10. Scripturally there is a "profound silence" about ancient events; ice-ages, dinosaurs, continental shift, etc (just as there's a "profound silence" about post-parousia events). Does that mean there was no "ongoing reality" prior to 4,000BC?
11. I believe God's the "author" of human life as He is is of everything else (Ac 17:25) and He DOESN'T "change". He's the same NOW as He's ever been (Mal 3:6, James 1:17). If He DOESN'T "change" and scripture says He's "righteous" (Ex 9:27) and His "Law" is "spiritual" (Rom 7:14), what do you think that meant for pre-adamic "peoples" and also for post-parousia "peoples"?
His blog is in http://preterism-preterist-taffy.blogspot.co.uk/p/death.html
Views: 920
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by timothy Wallace on
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Permalink Reply by Donald on
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Taffy,
Well, you have a link about "Soul" on your blog so I thought I don't need to post a thread. Or you can copy and paste it here.
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Permalink Reply by Taffy on
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Hi Don, I just thought that a separate discussion about the nature of the "Soul" would have been better.
Take care, Taffy.
[ Preterism (with Taffy) ]
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Don, I'm amazed that you're utterly convinced by your 'Israel Only'/"no ongoing reality" error, yet you've still not been able to answer one of my questions here?
Without "fear" your paradigm accuses God of being "unjust" and therefore you spend your time "straining out gnats" whilst all the time "swallowing camels" (Matt 23:24).
If I "reward" my children differently for doing jobs around the "house" I am NOT being "unjust" because I am free to do as I please with my own things (as, Matt 20:1-16). [ Even as God wasn't being "unjust" when He made "covenants and promises" to Israel and "rewarded" them accordingly. ] Yet if I "punish" my children differently for breaking the same house-rules I would be most "unjust".
You claim the Israelites had to give account for for "every idle word" (Matt 12:36) and the "secrets of their hearts" (Rom 2:16), yet somehow you believe that others (including you) don't have to? No need to worry about such trifles in the Hochner "house". How come Don?
Does God still not own the "house" in which we ALL live? Have the "penalties" for breaking His house-rules "changed"? Has He then stopped giving "life, breath and ALL things" to people (Ac 17:25)? Did divine and human "nature" indeed "change" in 70AD without us being made aware of it? Was it different before 4,000BC?
Is "righteousness" ("love") no longer "righteousness" and "sin" no longer "sin"? (Gen 18:25, Job 8:3, Mal 3:6, James 1:17) Or is it that "righteousness" ("love") is still "righteousness" because we like that bit, but "sin" is no longer "sin" because we don't like that bit? "Sin" is no longer of any concern to the One who gives us "life", ay?
Don, please point me to the scriptures that inspire you with such confidence. (Or just answer the questions above.) When you do so sufficiently I also will "eat and drink for tomorrow we die". But if (when) you're unable to, why not take some time out to seriously consider these things.
You may wish that it'll all be over for you when you put on your wooden-overcoat because a certain person has led you by the nose into believing this (see, "Soul"), but as you have no scriptural warrant for it all I can say is, "good luck".
Take care, Taffy.
[ Preterism (with Taffy) ]
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I thought I'd copy I'd copy in a snippet from my 'blog' on "Death":
- "Righteousness" is about doing the "right" thing. Doing the "right" thing has its origin in "love".
- "Love" has its origin in God (1 Jn 4:16) and lies at the heart of His "righteous requirements"/"Law" (Mk 12:30-31, Rom 2:26).
- Acting against "love" — what we know in out "hearts" to be "right" (Rom 2:14-15) — is "unrighteousness", i.e. "sin" (James 4:17, 1 Jn 4:20, 5:17).
- So unless God had a different "nature" pre-4,000BC and also post-70AD and Adam and his posterity had a different "nature" to other homo sapiens (one that ceased at the parousia), then "love" is STILL "love" and "sin" is STILL "sin".
- Both of which were in the world long before Adam and continued to be so after the "Judgement".
- The million dollar question is this: What does that mean to me? Does God "hide" His "eyes" from my "unrighteousness" (Heb 4:13)?
- Of course, similar to the atheist, we can try and squeeze "God Almighty" into a little paradigm that excuses us from all "accountability".
- This may help us feel better about ourselves but does it really work? Really?
- I also am a full-preterist and affirm that "covenants", "promises", etc, were given to Israel (Rom 9:4) and that they "inherited" the "land" from Adam.
- First the "type" (Gen 12:7, Col 2:17, Heb 8:2, 5, 10:1), then the "antitype" (Heb 11:10, 13-16).
- I also affirm that those who "forsook" their "abominations" and "joined themselves" to God's "servant" inherited it with them. (More on this another time.)
- But claiming there is no "ongoing reality" post-parousia is like saying humanity ceased to exist at the "Judgement" and that "God is dead"!
Take care, Taffy.
[ Preterism (with Taffy) ]
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Taffy,
You know, there is no more sin and death is defeated for the saints who were raised and caught away to be with Christ in heaven (1 Cor. 15:51-57; Rev. 21:4; 22:3). Why not us?
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Permalink Reply by RiversOfEden on
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Hi Donald,
I agree.
Those who claim to be "full preterists" and say that "death will be no more" after the Parousia (1 Corinthians 15:54-55; Revelation 21:4) have no biblcial or scientific basis for claiming any "on-going reality" when there is no evidence that anyone has ever escaped "death" since the Parousia.
All human beings have been "returning to dust" (without exception) for the past 2,000+ years (Genesis 3:19).
Rivers :)
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Hi Rivers, you still don't appear to have answered my previous questions? Here they are again:
You agree that men's/God's "nature" hasn't "changed" and that people "sinned" before Adam. Good.
1. i/ Against what "Law" did they "sin" (Rom 4:15, 1 Jn 3:4)? ii/ What do you believe the "penalty" was for their "sin" (Rom 6:23)?
iii/ Did the God who "changes not" (Mal 3:6, James 1:17) in fact "change" His "righteous requirements" (Rom 2:26) for pre-adamic peoples (Ps 11:7)? and once again for pre-Sinai peoples? and then again for post-parousia peoples?
2. Abraham was to, "..command his children AND his household after him (in addition to circumcising them; Gen 17:12), that they keep the way of the LORD, to do righteousness and justice.." (Gen 18:19). What was the "way of the LORD"? and what "righteousness and justice" is being referred to?3. Paul told his brethren, "if there had been a Law given which could have given life, truly RIGHTEOUSNESS would have been by the Law" (Gal 3:21). In what way do yo believe Abel, Noah, Melchizedek, and Abraham were called "RIGHTEOUS" even though they weren't "Israelites according to the flesh" and had no "written code" (Gen 7:1, 15:6, Matt 23:35, Heb 7:2)?
4. Paul told the Galatians that the "Law of Moses"/"ministry of death" (2 Cor 3:7) was only "added" to the Israelites because of "transgressions"/"sin" (Gal 3:19). Against WHAT did they "transgress"/"sin" before it was "added" to them?5. i/ Were the "transgressions"/"sins" committed by Israel against God before the "Law" was "added" to them different in character to the "transgressions"/"sins" they committed against Him after it was "added"? ii/ Or was it "added" as to "children" needing a "schoolmaster" so they could see what "sin" truly is to God, "exceedingly sinful" (Rom 7:13)?6. Were Israel's "sins" different in character to those of others? Pharaoh (Ex 9:27, 34)? or those in Nod? or Cain for example (Gen 4:7)?7. In what way did Pharaoh call the LORD "righteous" (Ex 9:27)?8. i/ What do you believe it was to "do well" and therefore "be accepted" by YHWH (Gen 4:7)? ii/ Could that be achieved by people apart from Israel?9. Jesus said that the heart of God's "requirements" was "love" (Mk 12:30-31) — because "God is love" (1 Jn 4:16). Paul also said "love" "fulfilled" God's "Law" (Rom 13:10, Gal 5:22-23).i/ Was "love" in the world before Adam? ii/ Did that mean God's "Law" was? iii/ Was the "love" of those ancient "peoples" different from that of the Israelites? iv/ And was it different to the "love" used by God as the 'standard' when He externalised/codified its "requirements" on "tablets of stone" for rebellious Israel (Rom 2:14-15, 26, 2 Cor 3:3)?Take care, Taffy.
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Hi Don, making such dogmatic one-line statements doesn't make them true.
It always amazes me how some "who claim to be full-preterists" deny the unchangeable "nature"of both man AND God.
Like your mentor says, "we must take into account ALL available evidence". That INCLUDES the unchanging "nature" of human and divine natures. Your erroneous paradigm doesn't.
How come you STILL haven't one of my original questions yet?
Take care, Taffy.
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Here's another snippet from my 'blog' on "Death":
- Scientific endeavours were prevalent in the ancient world from as early as 3,400BC (see, here), as was the chronicling of current events.
- But because we nowhere find ancient scientific data that claims to prove the existence of "soul" and "Hades", does that prove they didn't exist?
- Christ and His "apostles" believe they did. (See, "Soul".)
- Did "soul" cease to exist after the close of the inspired record because we continue to have no hard scientific data for its existence?
- It CANNOT have "ongoing reality" and Jesus and His "ministers" were just as deceived by such foolish superstitions as we are!
- But to substantiate this charge we first need to find scripture that says the children of those mentioned in places like Ac 17:26-28 would be anatomically different to their fathers once the parousia had passed.
- When we find such scripture, THEN we may have hope of establishing such folly.
- We could even go further then and claim God's "righteousness" has also changed and there are no longer consequences for our actions. (How "lovely" is that dream to some here!)
- Nor do we find ancient scientific/historical records that make mention of a certain "day" on which ALL those who called themselves "Christians" simply vanished.
- Being "caught up" meant that one minute they were there, the next, like some Houdini act, they disappeared; teeth, toenails, jacket, sandals, n'all.
- But to suggest that such a thing was necessary for the establishment of God's "Kingdom" is on par with the kind of "carnal" mindset present at the coming of Messiah.
- Most expected a mighty warrior, but instead He came "sitting on a donkey" (Matt 21:5).
- Most expected Him to defy Rome, but He said His "Kingdom" was "NOT of this world" (Jn 18:36) and that, “The Kingdom of God does not come with observation.." (Lk 17:20-21).
- "Salvation" of the complete "inner man", BOTH its "spirit" — received at "conversion" (1 Cor 6:11, 2 Cor 5:17), AND the physical aspect of the "flesh" that "clothed" it with a "body"/sōma — received on the "last Day" (Jn 6:39, Lk 20:36, Rom 8:23, 2 Cor 5:2-4, Phil 3:20-21), was an internal event, and indeed did NOT "come with observation".
- [ See, "The Resurrection". ]
Take care, Taffy.
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Hi Taffy,
OK, I'll briefly address your points again (in order).
1. Agreed. However, there is no mention of any historical figures or events of the Bible other than what is found in the canon of scripture.
2. The biblical record provides confirmation that the Israelites understood what "soul" (i.e. the living or dead physical body of a human being or animal) and "hades" (i.e. the unseen realm of the buriel plot) were.
3. Agreed. Jesus and the apostles were Israelites who understood what "soul" and "hades" were. See # 2 above.
4. History shows that many "souls" have been born after the Parousia (including you and me).
5. I don't understand what you're getting at here.
6. Acts 17:26-28 is an allusion to Deuteronomy 32:8 which is talking about "the sons of Israel". They are the "mankind" who were descended from the "one man" who was Abraham (Romans 4:1).
7. You're misinterpreting Acts 17:26-28. See #6 above (and read Deuteronomy 32:8-9).
8. God's expectation of "righteousness" was based upon the exclusive covenants that He made with the fathers of Israel (Romans 9:3-5; Amos 3:1-2). It had nothing to do with anyone else.
9. Both Jesus and Paul plainly stated that "every person" would be resurrected and judged at the Parousia during their generation (Matthew 24:34; Matthew 16:27-28; Romans 11:26; 1 Corinthians 15:23-24) and that God would be "all in all" at that point (1 Corinthians 15:26-28). Thus, by faith, we accept that "all Christians" were taken up the heavenlies at the Parousia (1 Thessalonians 4:13-17).
10. Yes. This is what 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 is describing in plain language. The phrase "caught up in the twinkling of an eye" means that they were instantly transported to another location (i.e. with the Lord in the heavenlies).
11. Scripture plainly says that the resurrection was necessary to establish God's Kingdom (1 Corinthians 15:23-26; 1 Corinthians 15:50-53).
12. Wrong. The scriptures plainly stated that the Christ "the King" would come "sitting on a donkey" (Zechariah 9:9).
Rivers :)
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Hi Rivers, I don't know how your reply answers the questions? If you could answer them in order and stick to the numbering that would be helpful. Otherwise it makes it difficult to respond to you. Here they are for the 3rd time:
You agree that men's/God's "nature" hasn't "changed" and that people "sinned" before Adam. Good.
1. i/ Against what "Law" did they "sin" (Rom 4:15, 1 Jn 3:4)? ii/ What do you believe the "penalty" was for their "sin" (Rom 6:23)?
iii/ Did the God who "changes not" (Mal 3:6, James 1:17) in fact "change" His "righteous requirements" (Rom 2:26) for pre-adamic peoples (Ps 11:7)? and once again for pre-Sinai peoples? and then again for post-parousia peoples?
2. Abraham was to, "..command his children AND his household after him (in addition to circumcising them;Gen 17:12), that they keep the way of the LORD, to do righteousness and justice.." (Gen 18:19). What was the "way of the LORD"? and what "righteousness and justice" is being referred to?3. Paul told his brethren, "if there had been a Law given which could have given life, truly RIGHTEOUSNESS would have been by the Law" (Gal 3:21). In what way do yo believe Abel, Noah, Melchizedek, and Abraham were called "RIGHTEOUS" even though they weren't "Israelites according to the flesh" and had no "written code" (Gen 7:1, 15:6, Matt 23:35, Heb 7:2)?
4. Paul told the Galatians that the "Law of Moses"/"ministry of death" (2 Cor 3:7) was only "added" to the Israelites because of "transgressions"/"sin" (Gal 3:19). Against WHAT did they "transgress"/"sin" before it was "added" to them?5. i/ Were the "transgressions"/"sins" committed by Israel against God before the "Law" was "added" to them different in character to the "transgressions"/"sins" they committed against Him after it was "added"? ii/ Or was it "added" as to "children" needing a "schoolmaster" so they could see what "sin" truly is to God, "exceedingly sinful" (Rom 7:13)?6. Were Israel's "sins" different in character to those of others? Pharaoh (Ex 9:27, 34)? or those in Nod? or Cain for example (Gen 4:7)?7. In what way did Pharaoh call the LORD "righteous" (Ex 9:27)?8. i/ What do you believe it was to "do well" and therefore "be accepted" by YHWH (Gen 4:7)? ii/ Could that be achieved by people apart from Israel?9. Jesus said that the heart of God's "requirements" was "love" (Mk 12:30-31) — because "God is love" (1 Jn 4:16). Paul also said "love" "fulfilled" God's "Law" (Rom 13:10, Gal 5:22-23).i/ Was "love" in the world before Adam? ii/ Did that mean God's "Law" was? iii/ Was the "love" of those ancient "peoples" different from that of the Israelites? iv/ And was it different to the "love" used by God as the 'standard' when He externalised/codified its "requirements" on "tablets of stone" for rebellious Israel (Rom 2:14-15, 26, 2 Cor 3:3)?[ Your comments on the "soul" and "Hades" are not only unscriptural, but also ludicrous. I tried starting a thread on "Soul" but Don wound't allow it. Also you misquote 1 Thess 4. There's NO MENTION of being "caught up in the twinkling of an eye". Maybe we'll come back to this after you've answered these questions. ]Take care, Taffy.
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Hi Taffy,
I copied and pasted what you said to Rivers........
Hi Rivers, you said, "The problem with your reasoning is that it doesn't logically follow that because 'God doesn't change' that He deals the same way with all people." But Rivers, the problem with your reasoning is this:
If God is God and man is man and sin is sin, if the "Judge of all the earth is to do right" (Gen 18:25) how can He punish "sin" differently from one man to the next and still be "just"? "Does God subvert judgement? Or does the Almighty pervert justice?" (Job 8:3) This is what you accuse Him of.