Questions from Taffy on "The Divine & Human Nature"

[Donald]

Guys,

 

Taffy gave me a list of questions and some of them I am not sure how to answer. He said go ahead and post here. I thought you might be willing to answer or something to discuss.

 

1. Do you believe human "nature" was different before Adam's time (4,000BC)? If yes, in what way?

 

2. Do you believe human "nature" was different after the parousia? e.g. in the children of the "church" or those referred to in Ac 17:26-28 who lived past the judgements? If yes, in what way?

 

3. Do you believe God's "nature" was different before 4,000BC? If yes, in what way?

 

4. Do you believe God's "nature" is different after 70AD? If yes, in what way?

 

5. Scripture says the "Law is spiritual" (Rom 7:14). When did humans first become "spiritual" and accountable for their actions? At Sinai, Ur, the Flood, the Garden, Gobekli Tepe, Africa, etc, etc?

 

6. Are humans still "spiritual"?

 

7. Do you believe men "sinned" before 4,000BC? If yes, against what "Law"? and what were their "wages"?

 

8. Do you believe men "sin" today? If yes, against what "Law"? and what are their "wages"?

 

9. Did the "righteous requirements" (Rom 2:26) of God's "spiritual" Law cease in 70AD? If yes, please point me to the scriptures. If no, what does that mean?

 

10. Scripturally there is a "profound silence" about ancient events; ice-ages, dinosaurs, continental shift, etc (just as there's a "profound silence" about post-parousia events). Does that mean there was no "ongoing reality" prior to 4,000BC?

 

11. I believe God's the "author" of human life as He is is of everything else (Ac 17:25) and He DOESN'T "change". He's the same NOW as He's ever been (Mal 3:6, James 1:17). If He DOESN'T "change" and scripture says He's "righteous" (Ex 9:27) and His "Law" is "spiritual" (Rom 7:14), what do you think that meant for pre-adamic "peoples" and also for post-parousia "peoples"?

His blog is in http://preterism-preterist-taffy.blogspot.co.uk/p/death.html

[RiversOfEden]

Taffy,

 

They show up as "bullet points" so I just numbered them accordingly.

 

P.S.  Make sure you stay up to watch the transit of Venus across the sun this evening.   It's the last time you'll see it before your "soul" returns to "dust" (Genesis 2:7).

 

http://venustransit.nasa.gov/transitofvenus/

 

Rivers :)

[e-mail]

[Taffy]

Rivers, with regards to the "bullet points", I plainly stated they were "a snippet from my 'blog' on "Death", which you know are different to the questions I've asked you 3 times but which you've evaded 3 times.  Here they are for the 4th time (I've also added a couple at the end): 

 

You agree that men's/God's "nature" hasn't "changed" and that people "sinned" before Adam.  Good.

 

1. i/ Against what "Law" did they "sin" (Rom 4:15, 1 Jn 3:4)?  ii/ What do you believe the "penalty" was for their "sin" (Rom 6:23)?  iii/ Did the God who "changes not" (Mal 3:6, James 1:17) in fact "change" His "righteous requirements" (Rom 2:26) for pre-adamic peoples (Ps 11:7)? and once again for pre-Sinai peoples? and then again for post-parousia peoples?

 
2. Abraham was to, "..command his children AND his household after him (in addition to circumcising them; Gen 17:12), that they keep the way of the LORD, to do RIGHTEOUSNESS and justice.." (Gen 18:19).  What was the "way of the LORD"? and what "righteousness and justice" is being referred to?

 

3. Paul told his brethren, "if there had been a Law given which could have given life, truly RIGHTEOUSNESS would have been by the Law" (Gal 3:21).  In what way do yo believe Abel, Noah, Melchizedek, and Abraham were called "RIGHTEOUS" even though they weren't "Israelites according to the flesh" and had no "written code" (Gen 7:1, 15:6, Matt 23:35, Heb 7:2)?

 

4. Paul told the Galatians that the "Law of Moses"/"ministry of death" (2 Cor 3:7) was only "added" to the Israelites "because of transgressions"/"sin" (Gal 3:19).  Against WHAT did they "transgress"/"sin" before it was "added" to them?  

 

5. i/ Were the "transgressions"/"sins" committed by Israel against God before the "Law" was "added" to them different in character to the "transgressions"/"sins" they committed against Him after it was "added"?  ii/ Or was it "added" as to "children" needing a "schoolmaster" so they could see what "sin" against God truly is, "exceedingly sinful" (Rom 7:13)?

 

6. Were Israel's "sins" different in character to those of others?  Pharaoh (Ex 9:27, 34)? or those in Nod? or Cain for example (Gen 4:7)?

 

7. In what way did Pharaoh call the LORD "righteous" (Ex 9:27)?

 

8. i/ What do you believe it was to "do well" and therefore "be accepted" by YHWH (Gen 4:7)?  ii/ Could that be achieved by people apart from Israel?

 

9. Jesus said that the heart of God's "requirements" was "love" (Mk 12:30-31) — because "God is love" (1 Jn 4:16).  Paul also said "love" "fulfilled" God's "Law" (Rom 13:10, Gal 5:22-23).

  

i/ Was "love" in the world before Adam?  ii/  Did that mean God's "Law" was?  iii/  Was the "love" of those "ancient peoples" different from that of the Israelites? iv/ Was it different to the "love" used by God as the 'standard' when He externalised/codified its "requirements" on "tablets of stone" for rebellious Israel (Rom 2:14-15, 26, 2 Cor 3:3)?

 

10. You claim Adam's "male physical form" took that "form" because that's how God wanted "angels" to appear.  Does that mean that those who went before Adam or who lived in other parts of the world at the same time as him (China, Japan, etc), and those who came after the parousia also bear God's "image"?

 

11. Do you believe that God gives you personally "life, breath and all things" (Ac 17:25)?

  

[ I repeat, your comments about the "soul" and "Hades" are not only unscriptural and unhistorical, but also ludicrous.  But given your day-dreams about "returning to dust" (which your "flesh" will) and nothing more, I fully understand your reasons for making then.  (Nothing to worry about in the Rivers household and no-one to "fear" — bliss!)  Also you misquote 1 Thess 4.  There's NO MENTION of being "caught up in the twinkling of an eye". ]

 

Take care, Taffy.

[ Preterism (with Taffy) ]

[Taffy]

Rivers, I think your cherished evasive tactics are confusing even you..lol.

 

You responded to a set of bullet-points I posted which had NO QUESTIONS attached to them, but the questions I've asked you 4 times you have NOT responded to (see, here).  If you feel you have, please provide the link.
 
Also, I'm afraid I'm not inclined to take advice regrading "exegesis" from someone who in effect dismisses the first 2,000 years of the biblical-era (i.e. 50% of it).  Someone who only pays lips service to it in order to establish his erroneous paradigm.

 

You 'start out' with your, Israel Only, no soul, God is dead, position, then force EVERYTHING to fit it no matter how unscriptural, unhistorical or preposterous.  And then from a great height you condemn others for not attaining your biblical mastery.  Incredible!
 
Here's an example.  You ask where the words "disembodied spirit realm" is found in scripture and condemn it as being "pagan".  I respond with, that's what "Hades" referred to (as used by Christ and His apostles) and was known to refer to THROUGHOUT the Roman Empire, including amongst the Hebrews (hence its use in the LXX).  

 

You and Don don't like that so you act like spoilt children throwing a tantrum because you think someone may be trying to steal your toys.  I could act in like childish way and ask you and Don, where is the word "permanence" found in scripture?  As I said, such things are "preposterous".

 

Anyway, here are my questions for the 5th time.  Like I said, if you beleive you've answered these already please provide the link):

 

You agree that men's/God's "nature" hasn't "changed" and that people "sinned" before Adam.  Good.  Such is obvious.

 

1. i/ Against what "Law" did they "sin" (Rom 4:15, 1 Jn 3:4)?  ii/ What do you believe the "penalty" was for their "sin" (Rom 6:23)?  iii/ Did the God who "changes not" (Mal 3:6, James 1:17) in fact "change" His "righteous requirements" (Rom 2:26) for pre-adamic peoples (Ps 11:7)? and once again for pre-Sinai peoples? and then again for post-parousia peoples?

 
2. Abraham was to, "..command his children AND his household after him (in addition to circumcising them; Gen 17:12), that they keep the way of the LORD, to do RIGHTEOUSNESS and justice.." (Gen 18:19).  What was the "way of the LORD"? and what "righteousness and justice" is being referred to?

 

3. Paul told his brethren, "if there had been a Law given which could have given life, truly RIGHTEOUSNESS would have been by the Law" (Gal 3:21).  In what way do yo believe Abel, Noah, Melchizedek, and Abraham were called "RIGHTEOUS" even though they weren't "Israelites according to the flesh" and had no "written code" (Gen 7:1, 15:6, Matt 23:35, Heb 7:2)?

 

4. Paul told the Galatians that the "Law of Moses"/"ministry of death" (2 Cor 3:7) was only "added" to the Israelites "because of transgressions"/"sin" (Gal 3:19).  Against WHAT did they "transgress"/"sin" before it was "added" to them?  

 

5. i/ Were the "transgressions"/"sins" committed by Israel against God before the "Law" was "added" to them different in character to the "transgressions"/"sins" they committed against Him after it was "added"?  ii/ Or was it "added" as to "children" needing a "schoolmaster" so they could see what "sin" against God truly is, "exceedingly sinful" (Rom 7:13)?

 

6. Were Israel's "sins" different in character to those of others?  Pharaoh (Ex 9:27, 34)? or those in Nod? or Cain for example (Gen 4:7)?

 

7. In what way did Pharaoh call the LORD "righteous" (Ex 9:27)?

 

8. i/ What do you believe it was to "do well" and therefore "be accepted" by YHWH (Gen 4:7)?  ii/ Could that be achieved by people apart from Israel?

 

9. Jesus said that the heart of God's "requirements" was "love" (Mk 12:30-31) — because "God is love" (1 Jn 4:16).  Paul also said "love" "fulfilled" God's "Law" (Rom 13:10, Gal 5:22-23).

  

i/ Was "love" in the world before Adam?  ii/  Did that mean God's "Law" was?  iii/  Was the "love" of those "ancient peoples" different from that of the Israelites? iv/ Was it different to the "love" used by God as the 'standard' when He externalised/codified its "requirements" on "tablets of stone" for rebellious Israel (Rom 2:14-15, 26, 2 Cor 3:3)?

 

10. You claim Adam's "male physical form" took that "form" because that's how God wanted "angels" to appear.  Does that mean that those who went before Adam or who lived in other parts of the world at the same time as him (China, Japan, etc), and those who came after the parousia also bear God's "image"?

 

11. Do you believe that God gives you personally "life, breath and all things" (Ac 17:25)?

  

[ I repeat, your comments about the "soul" and "Hades" are not only unscriptural and unhistorical, but also ludicrous.  But given your day-dreams about "returning to dust" (which your "flesh" will) and nothing more, I fully understand your reasons for making then.  (Nothing to worry about in the Rivers household and no-one to "fear" — bliss!)  Also you misquote 1 Thess 4.  There's NO MENTION of being "caught up in the twinkling of an eye". ]

 

Take care, Taffy.

[ Preterism (with Taffy) ]

[RiversOfEden]

Hi Taffy,

 

OK, I'll address your new points according to the numbers:

 

1.  The problem with what you're saying here is that you are assuming that God's "Law" was the same all people.  However, scripture plainly states that the Israelites were judged according to their exclusive covenant with God and its laws (Psalms 147:19-20; Amos 3:1-2).

 

2.  In the context of Genesis 17-18, "righteousness and justice" was speaking of "circumcision."   Paul explained the same thing in Romans 4:1-10.   The rest of the Law was not added "until 430 years later" (Galatians 3:16-19).

 

3.  Abel was "righteous" because he offered the better sacrifice (Hebrews 11:4).  Noah was "righteous" because he believed God's warning to build the ark before the flood (Hebrews 11:7).  Abraham was "righteous" because he believed God would give his people the Promised Land (Hebrews 11:8-10; Romans 4:3) and obeyed circumcision (Romans 4:11).

 

4.  Whether there were "transgessions" before the Law was added or not doesn't matter because "sin is not imputed when there is no Law" (Romans 5:13).   God's exclusive covenant with the Israelites made them accountable for their sins (Amos 3:1-2).

 

5.  Again, this questing is irrelevant because "sin is not imputed when there is no Law" (Romans 5:13).

 

6.  Sometimes they were different, and sometimes they weren't.

 

7.  In the context of Genesis 4:7, to "do well" would have been to offer the "better sacrifice" (Hebrews 11:4).

 

8.  Yes, but Jesus was only speaking to fellow Israelites (Matthew 15:24) who were required to "love their neighbor" to fulfill the righteous requirements of the covenant that God made exclusively with them (Psalms 147:19-20; Matthew 5:17-19)

 

9.  Paul was also only speaking to the Israelites (Romans 4:1; Acts 13:16-17; Acts 13:26) who were accountable to the Law of Moses (Romans 3:19-20).

 

9i.  No, there isn't any mention of God "loving" anyone before Abraham.

 

10.  Yes, because all male human beings have the same male "form" as the Israelites and the angels that appeared to them.   I don't have any problem with thinking that the "image of God" is the same.    In the same sense, women are still able to grow long hair and braid it on their heads (1 Corinthians 11:14-15).   There isn't any evidence that any human beings differ in this respect.

 

11. Yes, I believe the "breath of life" that we breath in our nostrils today is the "spirit (breath) of God".   There's no evidence that any human beings differ in this respect.

 

Rivers :)

[e-mail]

[Taffy]

Hi Rivers, these aren't "new points" but the points I asked you 4 times and which you evaded until now with your usual slippery manoeuvres..lol.  Thanks for finally responding.

 

My jaw almost hit the floor reading reading your reply!  How anyone can lack such understanding of God's "unchangeable"  "nature" and "righteous requirements"/Law so thoroughly — e.g. "sin" is "NOT imputed" where there's no "written" Law Rivers; that was Paul's whole point in Rom 1-5, ONLY the Israelites were condemned by the "written code", but they "sinned " BEFORE it was "added" to them AS DID OTHERS — and be as arrogant as you, beggars belief?

 

You acknowledge God gives you "life, breath and all things" (#11) but deny He requires anything of the "life" that He gives you?  WOW.  How stupid, "changeable", and unrighteous is this god of yours!  Let's fervently hope we all only have to do with "the god of Rivers".

 

There's so much to say about your daft, unscriptural/unhistorical replies, but I have no time to say it (at least not at present).

 

[ NB Don, for your own sake, please WAKE UP and stop being led around by the nose by this guy.  He may have "transformed" himself into an "angel of light" in your eyes speaking "smooth words" that are pleasing to your ears (such things have ever been so; Gen 3:1, 4), but both root and branch are rotten.  I don't ask you to believe what I believe but I have not realised the extent of Rivers' delusion until now.  I hope you start to also. ]

 

Anyway, have fun guys.

 

Take care, Taffy.

[ Preterism (with Taffy) ]

[RiversOfEden]

Hi Taffy,

 

I don't have a problem with finding general applications of scriptural principles after AD 70 because God did tell the Israelites that other peoples could perceive the wisdom in the law and ordinances that He gave exclusively to the Israelites (even though He didn't have any "love" for any other people).  Likewise, the human life of the Israelites ("breath of life" and "returning to dust") doesn't seem to be any different than what all human beings experience as "life" and "death."

 

However, you simply haven't offered any substantial biblical support for your assumptions about "disembodied spirits" or your version of "God's righteousness".    As long as you fail to substantiate these assumptions (that are critical to your interpretations) your views are completely unpersuasive.    It's very easy to answer your questions directly from scripture but you don't seem to like the answers and so you ignore them.

 

You also haven't made any effort to answer the numerous objections and questions that others have presented to you.  This is further reason to conclude that your perspective is inconsistent and implausible.  It seems like you are just trying to "prove" a bizarre version of preterism that you haven't actually derived from considering all of the biblical evidence.

 

Rivers :)

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