What was the first heaven and earth passed away in Rev. 21?

[Donald]

Everyone,

 

Please share your view what does this mean ("heaven" and "earth")? Also what about "no more sea"?

 

From Gen. 1-3?

 

The Mosaic covenant?

 

Something else?

 

This is only for the full preterist view and it should be interesting.

 

 

[JL Vaughn]

They were the heaven and earth and sea of Genesis 1.

The verses immediately (Rev. 20:11-15) preceding reference Heaven & earth, the sea and life and death.  Life and death are themes from Gen. 1-3.  The serpent of old (Gen. 3) in Rev. 20:2 is the devil who also deceived the saints.  Death, sorrow, pain, the fountain of water, the stones, the gold, and the gates that follows Rev. 21:1 are elements from Gen. 1-3.

There can be no reasonable doubt that John is referring to the heavens and earth of Genesis 1.

As a believer in Covenant Eschatology, the heaven and earth that passed away, refers to the old covenant which ended in AD 70.  Therefore, the Genesis 1 heavens and earth must be that same old covenant.

Blessings

[Taffy]

Hi Don.  I'm with Jeff.  But I'd like to add this if I may.

 

When we go outside and look down at the "land" and up at the "sky" that pretty much encompasses everything for us, right? the fullness of our existence.  Nothing better can be used then as 'symbols' for describing it.  (Consider all the references to cosmological features in poetry and songs.  "Bridge over troubled water.", "Walking on the Moon", etc, etc...)

 

The "..heavens and the earth, and the sea, and all that is in in them.." (Ex 20:11), were used in Gen 1-3 to describe the fullness of covenant-"man's" existence and his relationship with God. REAL cosmological features of the "land" and "sky" (stars/animals/vegetation, etc), used to 'represent' real 'Community' features (as was common even then).  [Research the pictographs/ideograms of ancient times as found on 'Cylinder Seals' and such.]

 

One caution: We must be careful not to make the original edenic "covenant" (made with Adam and those "IN" him; i.e. his ENTIRE posterity, "just" and "unjust", "elect" and otherwise; Ac 24:15, Rom 9:22) one thing, and God's covenant-PEOPLE ("creation"), another.  They were 'one'.  

 

Adam "condemned" THEM; the "old creation" (Rom 5:16-18, 8:21), Christ "restored" THEM; the "new creation" (Ac 3:21, 2 Cor 5:17); both spiritually AND physically.  (See my thread, "The Resurrection".)

 

Take care, Taffy.

[Taffy]

Don.  Also notice that the "Kingdom" was "prepared" for the "faithful" from the "foundation of the world (kosmos)" (Matt 25:35).  IOW, Gen 1-3.

 

The "everlasting fire" that would be the potion of "cursed" men like Cain (Gen 4:11)—violent and "unbelieving" sons of Adam who were the "vessels of wrath" (Rom 9:22)—was from the same time (Lk 11:50).  It had been "prepared" for the "devil", that "serpent of old" (see Gen 3:1; also, Matt 25:41, Rev 12:9).

 

The landscape for the holy writers when speaking of the covenant "world"/God's "creation" ("heavens and earth"), always began with Eden (Gen 1-3), NOT Sinai.

[Donald]

Jeff and Taffy,

 

I agree. I think in Rev. 21 came from Gen. 1-3.

 

I just need to understand a little bit more about "heavens and earth" itself as well with the "sea". Also what is the difference from the "world" (kosmos) if they are not the same thing?

 

I think the "covenant world" means God's chosen people with laws, commandments, genealogies, and the Promised Land. This encompassing the "heaven and earth". So when the heaven and earth passed away, it means there is no longer laws, commandments, genealogies, and the earthy Promised Land because all things were fulfilled in Christ, correct?

 

[JL Vaughn]

Don,

John's usage of "earth" ge and "world" kosmos is very consistent.  Heaven and earth refers to the covenant and covenant people throughout history.  World refers to a single generation of heaven and earth.

Matthew is not consistent in that usage.  I believe Peter is, but those who see a second heaven and earth in 2 Peter 3:7 obviously disagree.

Jeff

[Taffy]

Hi Don.  Yes, covenant-"man" was "fashioned"/"prepared" in the righteous "image" of God.  Being a visible manifestation of the "invisible God" His "righteous requirements"/Laws would have been known instinctively by Adam and passed down in his "nature" to ALL his "generations".  On the "last Day" they were ALL "without excuse" (Rom 2:14-16).  [ See my thread, "The Image of God". ]

 

Being the "land" where God's "presence" rested, Eden was the original "promised land" and the "Garden" where He manifested His "glory" (Gen 3:8), the original "holy place" (or "tabernacle"/"temple"/"city").  This "land" was a "type" of "[heavenly] country"/"heavenly Kingdom" (Gen 2:9-10, Rev 2:7, 22:1-2; also, Heb 11:8-10, 16, 12:22, 28, 13:14, Jn 14:2, 18:36, Phil 3:20, 2 Tim 4:18, 1 Thess 4:17) and it was originally given to Adam to "rule over" (Gen 1:26).

 

All 'Communities' need some form of 'order'—even "holy angels" have "archangels" (Matt 25:31, 1 Thess 4:16, Jude 1:9).  It's reasonable to assume then that one of Adam's "tribes" would have succeeded him in "ruling over" the "land"/"Kingdom".  But Adam "sinned" and lost his right to the "land".  Nevertheless, it was to be regained by one of his descendants and "ruled over" again by one of his "tribes" (Gen 12:7).

 

Adam was "driven out" of the "Garden" (Gen 3:23-24) yet stayed in the "land" (Gen 4:16).  "Light" remained there because YHWH's "presence" remained there.  Cain was "driven out" of the "land" and therefore into "darkness" (Gen 4:14) and so he became the first to experience the "type" of the "Lake of Fire". Nevertheless, being of Adam's "blood" he was still jealously overseen by God (Gen 4:15, 9:6).  It was He who would judge His covenant-PEOPLE for their "works" on the "last Day"—"just and unjust" (Ac 24:15, Rom 2:16).

 

Just as Cain was "driven out" of God's "presence" into "darkness" yet remained of the "covenant world", even so would ALL of Adam's children be "cast out" who were not of "faith"—regardless of which one of his "generations" they descended from (Matt 8:12, 25:41, Rev 20:15).  They ALL shared in his "blood"/"nature" (Gen 1:26-28, 3:20, 5:3, 9:6, 9:1, 7, 9, 12, 19, 10:5, 11:8, Ac 17:26-28, 1 Cor 11:7, 15:49, James 3:9).

 

The "land" of Israel (which may have been located in the same place as Eden and the "Garden" as Jerusalem; it makes no real difference either way) was again a "type" of God's "heavenly Kingdom"; a prelude of what was to come in the "world" "above" AFTER the "last Day" (Jn 6:39-40, 44,54, 8:23).  On account of Abraham's "faith" it was given as an "everlasting inheritance" to the adamic "tribe" of Israel (Gen 12:7, 13:15, 18, 26:3-4, 28:13, Deut 6:10, Num 33:54, 1 Kings 8:36, Ps 105:11, Dan 7:18, 22, Jer 3:18, 12:14, Eze 48:29).  

 

They were made "holy to the LORD" (Lev 20:26, Deut 7:6, 14:2) and so "chosen" from Adam's "generations" to "rule over" the "Kingdom" as His "servant" (Lev 25:55).  In the "fullness of time" they would do so under the "headship" of the promised "Seed" (Gen 3:15, Gal 3:16, Isa 60:12, Dan 7:14, Rev 2:26, 5:10).

 

The Israelites were to "drive out" all "uncleanness" from the "land" (Ps 44:2, 78:55, 105:44-45, 135:12, 136:21, Jer 16:18).  NONE of their adamic "kindred" were to have any potion in its "glory" UNLESS they forsook their "abominations" and "joined themselves" to YHWH's "servant" (Isa 56:3-7, 44:5, Jer 50:5, Dan 7:27, Eze 47:22-23).  

 

Those of the covenant-"world" who willingly placed themselves under THEIR authority and "hoped" in the "message" THEY preached (Rom 5:11, 2 Cor 5:18-19), partook in the "commonwealth of Israel"; both in this life and the next.  The rest would remain in "darkness"; both in this life and the next.

[Donald]

Jeff,

 

What do you mean when you said "Matthew is not consistent in that usage"? Could you please clarify?

 

Do you agree with Taffy's posts in above?

[Donald]

Guys,

What about no more "sea" in Rev. 21:1?

[Donald]

Jeff and Taffy,

 

What about the animals in Gen. 1-3? I think some covenant creationists claimed they were the "Gentiles" but I am not convinced. The reason is that only Adam and his descendants were in need for the redemption, not for the "non-Adamites"/"Gentiles"/those who were not in covenant with God.

[Taffy]

Hi Don, you're right.  None but Adam and his "generations" were in need of "salvation".  (For example, there was no "aid" for God's "messengers"; Heb 2:16.)

 

"Sea" in scripture could be used to 'symbolise' a number of things, e.g. those from "afar" (e.g. Dan 7:2-3).   Notice how Daniel inter-connects "sea" and "earth" (Dan 7:3, 17).  The use and meaning of 'symbols' depended on what 'characteristics' the authors wanted to emphasise.  Cosmological features are used to 'symbolise' emotions, people, and notable events in similar ways even today.  (See my previous post.)  "Great sea/water creatures" could be used to 'symbolise' leaders (e.g. Pharaoh; Ps 73:13-14, Eze 29:3).  

 

For the 'symbolism' of Gen 1-3 there are many scriptures to consider (Ps 82:5, Isa 13:10, 14:13, 24:18, Dan 8:10, Hos 2:18, etc, etc....), as well as extra-biblical sources.

 

It's worth considering that the original edenic 'Community' could have included those not native to the "land" (i.e. from the "Sea").  However, if that was indeed the case once Christ had "gathered together IN ONE ALL things..in Heaven (inc. "angels"; Job 15:15, Matt 22:30)..and on earth (covenant-man).." (Eph 1:10), under His own "headship" (Col 2:10), that distinction/separation was swept away;  "..and there was no more Sea.." (Rev 21:1).

 

With regards to the "animals" (birds, land and sea/water creatures) we read of in Eden/the "Garden", there are a number of things to consider:

 

1. Adam was originally to "rule"/"have dominion over" them ALL, including the "sea" creatures (Gen 1:26-28).  If you wish to believe he was commanded to "rule over" slugs, jelly-fish and crows, you are welcome to do so.

 

2. God "brought" some of those "animals" to Adam so they could "help" him and because He didn't want Adam to be "alone" (Gen 2:18-19).  Whilst "naming" them God wanted Adam to look for a "helper" amongst them "comparable" to himself (Gen 2:20), that is, who also bore God's "image".  One couldn't be found.  [ But Adam wouldn't have tried looking for a "helper" amongst them unless they'd first been sent to "help" him, right? ]  

 

Again, if you wish to believe God mocked Adam by bringing him a load of gazelles, etc, to see if he could assuage his loneliness and find a "helper comparable" to himself from amongst them (one that would become his "wife"! Matt 19:8), you are free to do so.  (I've heard of Dr Doolittle "talking to the animals", but that's going a tad too far...lol.)

 

3. Notice 'who' else we find amongst those creatures; the "serpent" (Gen 3:1, Rev 12:9) who according to Isaiah was of the "Sea" (Isa 27:1).  One more "cunning" than all the others (Gen 3:1).  This one had a little chat with Eve about the pros-and-cons of obedience (Gen 3:2-4).  If you want to make him a real snake that's up to you.  But his appearance here and what we know this edenic creature later became, is important to note.

 

So, as far as I can tell, in Gen 1-3 "animals" = people; a people called for a SPECIFIC purpose.  

 

Also, I don't believe that the "messengers" (mal'ak/aggelos) of God we read of in scripture were specially created 'spiritual' beings.  Notice how God's "aggelos" were compared by John to birds "flying through the midst of Heaven" (Rev 8:13, 14:6), and consider the 'form' some "mal'ak/aggelos" took (Gen 19:1-3, Heb 13:2, Lk 24:4, Ac 1:10).

  

IMO the people ("animals") 'symbolised' in Gen 1-3 were originally "chosen" for a "high" calling: Their "proper domain/abode" was to stand before God "helping" and "caring" for the "man" He'd "fashioned"/"formed" in His "own" righteous "image" and covenanted Himself to (Heb 2:6-8).  IOW, to be "representatives" of His "love" and "messengers" of His "care" for him.  "Helping" him where and when needed.  A ministry they'd 'begin' in this life and continue in the next (Matt 24:44, Ac 1:10, 11:13, 12:7, 15).  

 

Some "served" in that capacity willingly, and continued to do so (Heb 1:14).  Others (e.g. the "serpent") didn't (Jude 1:6).  For those there was no "aid" (Heb 2:16).  I believe the call to the 'office' of "messenger" ended before the Flood.  But cosmological features (animals, stars, vegetation, waters, etc) continued to be used by the "holy" authors to describe Adam's covenant-bound posterity through Noah and that which related to THEM, even until the "last Day".

 

Upon the demise of God's "messengers", their "inner man" ("soul" AND that which "clothed" it, i.e. its "body"; see my thread on, "The Resurrection") passed into the next life just like the rest of humanity (see my thread, "Preterism & Hope" - post parousia).  Only Adam and his posterity had their "body" and "soul" torn asunder.  ("Death" was pronounced solely upon him; see my thread, BIBLICAL "Sin & Death").  

 

The "holy" one's continued to minister to God's covenant-PEOPLE after the Flood (Heb 1:14) whilst in His wisdom He also allowed the "unclean" ones (Matt 10:1) to continue their relationship with them in order to 'prove' them—"consider Job", the NON Israelite! (Job 1:6-12)  Nevertheless, they knew they only had a season (Matt 8:29, 25:41) before their time of causing misery would come to an end (Matt 4:24, Lk 8:28).

 

Anyway, only some thoughts.......

 

Take care, Taffy.

[JL Vaughn]

Don,

Matthew appears to use "world" and "heavens and earth" interchangeably in places.

Donald said:

Jeff,

 

What do you mean when you said "Matthew is not consistent in that usage"? Could you please clarify?

 

Do you agree with Taffy's posts in above?

[JL Vaughn]

No more gentiles.  There is neither Jew nor gentile in the new covenant / heaven and earth.

Donald said:

Guys,

What about no more "sea" in Rev. 21:1?