This is a group discussion about the book, "Beyond Creation Science" by Tim Martin and Jeff Vaughn and also their view on "Covenant Creation". Jeff Vaughn "JL" is a member of this site
As you are well aware, we have many preterist critics who claim the flood was global and ignore our arguments for a local flood. You and I agree that the flood was physically local, but that is just the beginning.
What does "all flesh" mean to you? Do you see this as all people? Universally? Or limited to the covenant people? Or limited in some other way?
Chapters 13-18 of BCS develop Covenant Creation. Our conclusion is, the "new heaven and new earth" of Covenant Eschatology are the Church, the Bride of Christ. The H&E of Gen. 1 is the H&E that Jesus said would pass away in the Olivet and John saw pass away in Rev. 21:1. So the H&E of Gen. 1:1 is the old covenant and old covenant people (or person) in total.
The new H&E is not physical. Neither is the Gen. 1 H&E. Both are of similar or concordant nature.
Since your view of the new H&E denies that it includes the post-AD-70 Church, I don't know how to make the comparison.
Yeah, I’m surprised that many preterists ignore good arguments for a local flood. I think one of the reasons is that they are concerned about not all mankind came from Adam which can lead to Israel exclusive at the end. However, you believe all mankind can be saved since the Parousia of Christ which seems to be contradiction from the beginning (Genesis Creation), in my opinion.
About “all flesh”, these people were the descendants of Seth (“Sons of God” Gen. 6:4; 4:26; 5:3-32) and they were destroyed except 8 people. So, it is limited to the “covenant” people but I don’t feel comfortable to use this term until after Abraham through his son, Isaac. In Gen. 1-11 was a brief history about Abraham’s ancestors which Moses wrote about, preparing to enter the Promised Land.
I do not embrace your view but I am willing to listen what you have to say. I am having a hard time to see your view about H&E of Gen. 1:1 is the old covenant and its people and this is what Rev. 21:1 (recreation) is about. Also you do not think H&E in Gen. 1:1 is physical. I think you need to explain a little bit more why Gen. 1 H&E is not physical. Also in 2 Peter 3:3-13 seems speaking of physical which it was destroyed by the fire. I know you and other preterists have been debating about “H&E” being destroyed by fire, Gen. 1:1 or Mosaic Covenant. I think the latter make more sense to me at this point.
I still see Gen. 1-2 were the creation of the “sky” and the “land” within the Promised Land (“four corners of the earth/land/wind” and they were literal and earthly (people and land) which is type and anti-type of spiritual and heavenly in heaven for God's people.
JL Vaughn
As you are well aware, we have many preterist critics who claim the flood was global and ignore our arguments for a local flood. You and I agree that the flood was physically local, but that is just the beginning.
What does "all flesh" mean to you? Do you see this as all people? Universally? Or limited to the covenant people? Or limited in some other way?
Chapters 13-18 of BCS develop Covenant Creation. Our conclusion is, the "new heaven and new earth" of Covenant Eschatology are the Church, the Bride of Christ. The H&E of Gen. 1 is the H&E that Jesus said would pass away in the Olivet and John saw pass away in Rev. 21:1. So the H&E of Gen. 1:1 is the old covenant and old covenant people (or person) in total.
The new H&E is not physical. Neither is the Gen. 1 H&E. Both are of similar or concordant nature.
Since your view of the new H&E denies that it includes the post-AD-70 Church, I don't know how to make the comparison.
Feb 24, 2010
JL Vaughn
Feb 24, 2010
Donald
Yeah, I’m surprised that many preterists ignore good arguments for a local flood. I think one of the reasons is that they are concerned about not all mankind came from Adam which can lead to Israel exclusive at the end. However, you believe all mankind can be saved since the Parousia of Christ which seems to be contradiction from the beginning (Genesis Creation), in my opinion.
About “all flesh”, these people were the descendants of Seth (“Sons of God” Gen. 6:4; 4:26; 5:3-32) and they were destroyed except 8 people. So, it is limited to the “covenant” people but I don’t feel comfortable to use this term until after Abraham through his son, Isaac. In Gen. 1-11 was a brief history about Abraham’s ancestors which Moses wrote about, preparing to enter the Promised Land.
I do not embrace your view but I am willing to listen what you have to say. I am having a hard time to see your view about H&E of Gen. 1:1 is the old covenant and its people and this is what Rev. 21:1 (recreation) is about. Also you do not think H&E in Gen. 1:1 is physical. I think you need to explain a little bit more why Gen. 1 H&E is not physical. Also in 2 Peter 3:3-13 seems speaking of physical which it was destroyed by the fire. I know you and other preterists have been debating about “H&E” being destroyed by fire, Gen. 1:1 or Mosaic Covenant. I think the latter make more sense to me at this point.
I still see Gen. 1-2 were the creation of the “sky” and the “land” within the Promised Land (“four corners of the earth/land/wind” and they were literal and earthly (people and land) which is type and anti-type of spiritual and heavenly in heaven for God's people.
Feb 24, 2010