Fulfilled Theology - Preterist

Discussion All Areas Of Systematic Theology

This is a response about Rivers view on the Jews and 10 Tribes!

Timothy Wallace October 7, 2012 at 5:38 pm

I agree with most of what Rivers says, but i listen to one of the shows and what he was saying about the Jews.The Jews are not a religion! That is n possible based on the  word Judahite.Judahite does not equal religion. Jesus was a Judahite because he was from the tribe of Judah..Jesus and the Apostles followed the Law of Moses Those Tribes that came back to the land brought a new religion from Babylon.They where not following the Law of Moses!!...Do your own study on it and you will be surprised. I am here to contribute on this issue but the subject of Jews and Israel still needs to be defined…Lets start with the word Jew, then we will deal with Israel. (This is not my opinion this is history,the bible and the study of Etymology!  The term Jew originates in the Biblical Hebrew word Yehudi meaning “from the Tribe of Judah “, “from the Kingdom of Judah , or “Jew “. This was translated into the Greek Ioudaios and Latin Iudaeus, from which the Old French giu was derived after dropping the letter “d”, and later became the English word Jew.  Originally, the term Yehudi referred specifically to members of the tribe of Judah, as distinguished from the other tribes of Israel. However, after the death of King Solomon, the nation of Israel was split into two kingdoms.  The kingdom of Judah and the kingdom of Israel…. The Term Jew is not a religion it was to represent the men of Judah… Lets deal with Israel and what Rivers said about race and circumcision….Psalm 147- Israel and Jacob are the only one’s to receive God’s law and decrees 12 Racial seed blood line tribes(Fact)….This is for Israel only(Fact) Israels 10 Northern Tribes were not lost at (ALL,FACT) ( There is no separating the law,land,covenant,race promises,Hades,Geneology Promises) Israels Ten Northern tribes  were not lost!!  God was looking for Jacobs racial seed. Matthew 28 was to regather the uncircumised and circumsied Israelite who were related to Abraham and Jacob..(They where their race,kin,brothers.( These 10 tribes where Jacobs blood and prosterity who where not Circumsied) Don’t you find it interesting that Israel was on the other side of the Eurphartes? There where Millions who became Celts,Sycnthians,Barbarinans and those who kept there idenity!!! These are the other uncircumcisied Israelites that James and Peter and the whole bible were talking about. Those in Asia Minor, Russia, Ukraine,Britian,Gaulatians,Turkey,Media,Cappadocia not just Rome,Greece,Spain etc…..This is why those uncircumcised 10 Northern Tribes could care less about circumcision..Those Judahites=JEWS who went back to build the wall and Temple were all about the land and Temple but all those people in the land where not Judahites. They where Benjaminites,Levitites Cannanites Edomites  When the bible says look at all these Jews were they from Judea? Where they from the Tribe of Judah? Where the from Jerusalem? Where these Jews following the law of Moses or did these Jews follow the traditions from the babylonian religious system?...King Herod was a Edomite.(Was  he a Jew) The land was full of non- Israelites who were considered Jews because they lived in Judea not because they followed the law of Moses .. Final thoughts before we start working on a new Theology...So a Jew can be a person who is born a Jew! A Jew can be someone who follows the law which is really the Babylonian Talmud. A Jew can be a Jew because he lives in Judea.... 

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Comment by Donald on October 10, 2012 at 3:23pm



I suggest you to join in Facebook groups where you will have more people involved because this forum is kinda of "dead" (quiet) lately. Trust me. ;-)

Comment by timothy Wallace on October 10, 2012 at 3:00pm

Thanks for the information on Face book...I would appreciate it if you can answer those questions! At this point this is where i  lose everyone..I posted examples of the word Jew and the history of it...(The word Jew is very (Disngenous- lacking in candor; also : giving a false appearance of simple frankness : calculating) I would appreciate if you can answer my question on the Scynthians and Barbarians.(How can these Nations be in Christ?) These Nations were in the area of the Ten Tribes! How about Christ spending his time in Galliee which is a Celtic colony or close to it? Gaulatians is a Celtic Colony filled with Celtics and Greeks. Why did Paul preach the Gospel to these Nations? How can the Celts.Greeks,Scynthians,Barbarians be the Chosen People...This is History and the Bible Donald! There has not been one PRETERIST WHO WANTS TO EVEN DISCUSS THIS (WHY?) This belief is very (Consistent-marked by harmony, regularity, or steady continuity : free from variation or contradiction) with the bible. I would love to hear from anyone on this great bible history and these chosen people that God regathered...I thought this site might be a great place to talk about the CELTS,SCYTHIANS,BARBARIANS..Why dont we ever hear of the make up of these tribes? Whe did  the Apostles go to these Tribes? Why did Jesus go live amongest the Celts in Galliee? We only hear of Jews and not the Ethnos of the other clans,tribes,nations! Is there anyone who wants to talk about these people that are in the bible?

Comment by Donald on October 10, 2012 at 10:56am

Tim, here's my Facebook groups:


Preterist and Fulfilled Theology: http://www.facebook.com/#!/groups/381541645214446/


The Chosen People: http://www.facebook.com/#!/groups/389953497721186/

Comment by timothy Wallace on October 9, 2012 at 6:02pm

The meaning of the word "Jew" in the Bible is not the same as the commonly held modern view. In the Bible the word "Jew" is meant to refer to a resident of the land of Judaea. Moreover, it is a reference regardless of tribe, race or religion. Anyone who was an inhabitant of Judaea was a "Jew" and need not be a member of the tribe of Judah (Judahite) or one  who followed the Judaic religion. Thus, "Jews" and "Jewry" in the Bible not only refer Judah (i.e. Jehudah or Juttah) but also a part of (or place in) Palestine and any other peoples who dwelt there. In the modern, colloquial idiom "Jews" are descendants of Judah while in the Bible it means anyone dwelling in Judaea regardless of lineage or ethnicity. Now, Judah was the largest and the most influential of the Twelve Tribes of Israel with the governing right whose sons where to provide the rightful kings of Israel. That is, they were the inheritors of the Bible Covenants but especially the Davidic Covenant. In short; the Chosen People of Yahweh. However, Jacob prophesied (Gen. 49:10) the tribe would only maintain its pre-eminence until "Shiloh," came who would then assume headship and receive the allegiance of true spiritual Israel as Isaiah 9:6-7 foretold. That is, when the Messiah arrived. This is why Jesus' lineage was established in Matthew 1 and Luke 3 to David, Judah, Jacob and Abraham. So that when He took the sceptre from Judah all who receive Him as Messiah give Him their allegiance.

 At the time of Christ's Mission, in the days of His flesh, few of the citizens of Judaea were Judahites, that is, direct descendants of Judah and so the "Chosen People"; the true recipients of the Bible Covenants. Following the destruction of David's Kingdom (its dismemberment first by Babylonians and then by Assyrian's) the forced depopulation of Israel and its people in Exile and bondage, their release by Cyrus the Great and their return and restoration of the Temple, the population of Palestine was very mixed. Although some did indeed belonged to the tribe of Judah and others to one of the other tribes of Israel, many others were descendants of other patriarchs, but, especially, of Esau. These were the Edomites who had been conquered and now assimilated and become co-religionists with the Judahites and remnants of the other tribes of Israel. Moreover, this mixed race were melded together by a hybrid religion  developed during the captivity in Babylon. This is the religion of the Pharisee .... Pharisaism  ... the man-made religion of the Talmud that is today called Judaism. This man-centred, man-made religion was the religion vehemently condemned by Christ since it is the antithesis of the Mosaic Law and the prophets and makes the Word of God of no effect (Matt. 15:1-9).

"After these things Jesus walked in Galilee: for He would not walk in JEWRY, because the JEWS sought to kill Him."(John 7:1)

Here, the English word "Jewry" was translated from the Greek word "Ioudaia", which denoted the land of Judaea. This was acknowledged by modern redactors who chose not to use the word "Jewry" but the correct translation "Judaea." For example, in the New American Standard Bible:

"And after these things Jesus was walking in Galilee; for He was unwilling to walk in JUDAEA, because the JEWS were seeking to kill Him."(John 7:1) Do you think the word Jew means all this? Again in 2 kings it referred to the men of Judah(That is it)Any way what about those 10 tribes and all those Celts and Scynthians,Barbarians.Are these Celtic Israelites like the Greek Israelites.. These Tribes and yes they are called Gentiles=Nations could be Israel?....This is where God told them to Go and gather Israel.....These are where the churches where established? Do you believe Jacob's 10 sons,blood line, uncircumsied Gentiles received the promises with the three southern Tribes the circumsied ones? (Pretty Good history so far)....Thanks
Comment by timothy Wallace on October 9, 2012 at 5:47pm

I know the whole story on the 12 tribes and more.(Maybe that is why i cant get a answer about RACE)...What do you think about the Scynthians and Barbarians being in Christ?  Where they from the 10 Northern Tribes?  Are they from the dispersed 10 Tribes? I am going to try to keep this simple.A Jew is a religion(Yes/No) A Jew is based on you living in Judea (Yes/No)  A Judahite is a jew no matter where he is?(Yes/No) All the people who lived in Jerusalem like the Edomites,Benjaminites,etc where Jews?(Yes/No). I am looking at the maps on the internet and it is showing all the churches in Gaulatians,Gallia where all the Celtic Colonys and Celtic and Greek people lived and why do you think Christ and the Apostles went to them?. ...Why did Christ and the apostles go to the Celts and Greeks and Scynthians,Barbarians? Would i be wrong to call them Israel? Can these People be the Gentile Israelites? I will post just one more thing on Jew then i will move on!!! The word Jew does not equal religion and that is the history of Etomology and  2 kings 16:6. Can you give me a straight answer on the Celts and everything else I asked...Thanks

Comment by Donald on October 9, 2012 at 4:27pm

The word “gentiles” in plural should be called “nations” (Strong’s # 1471) and it was first appeared in Gen. 10:5 after Noah’s flood. We know that Shem was one of Abraham’s ancestors. The word “nation” (again not “gentile”) in singular was first mentioned in Gen. 12:2 and this was talking about Abraham’s descendants shall become a great nation (Israel). Later on God promised Abraham as with Jacob/Israel, “a nation and a company of nations shall COME FROM YOU” (Gen. 18:18; 35:11).

I don’t know how much you know about the history of Israel in the OT before we look into the NT whom Jesus and the apostles were preaching to. You may recall that after the death of Solomon, the kingdom of Israel was divided into two, the house of Judah and the house of Israel and they were at war with each other. Eventually the house of Israel became like the harlot and God “divorced her” (Jer. 3:6-11). They were considered “not His people” (Hosea 1:9-11; 2:18-23; Rom. 9:24-26), “without hope and completely cut off” (Ezek. 37:11), and “swallowed up and they are now among the nations” (Hosea 8:8). However, God promised them the new covenant with the house of Judah (Jer. 31:31-34; Ezek. 34; 36; 37; Rom. 11:25-28) through Jesus the Messiah, their Shepherd and Kinsman.

Another thing about the house of Judah, they were called the “Jews” (Judeans or Judahites, Strong’s #3064) which is first mentioned after the division of the kingdom in 2 Kings 16:6. They were still in covenanted with God until Jesus’ time and they were called the “Circumcised” and still following the Law of Moses. During the first century, the “Jews” distained the gentile Israelites (house of Israel) as the “Uncircumcised” which Paul was sent to (Gal. 2:7-9) because they thought the house of Israel was lost and hopeless as we saw the parable of the Prodigal Son (Luke 15:11-32). So, all Jews were Israel but not all Israel were Jews.

Finally, as we saw the story about Peter (“Jew” and “Circumcised”) and Cornelius (“Gentile” and “Uncircumcised”), they were the descendants of Abraham because the apostles and the elders came together to look into this matter (Acts 15:6-18) and they found out about this from Amos 9:11-14. They (“Jews”) realized that the gentile Israelites can be grafted in because of its root (Abraham) if they believe in Jesus (Rom. 11). This is what God promised to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in regard with their descendants (Genesis 17:3-8; Genesis 22:17; Genesis 35:10-11; Genesis 48:19-20) among the nations.

Comment by timothy Wallace on October 9, 2012 at 2:26pm

Hello Donald, Nice to hear from you again..... I need that face book page. Lets look at Acts 2:5-Peter addresses the crowd Fellow Jews and all of you who live in Jerusalem..Are the Jews by living in Jerusalem or their religion? If it was up to me they would all be called Israelites/Judahities  .Acts 2-22 Fellow Israelites( this should be they proper translation)...I have put out enough of stuff on the Etomology of the word Jew. Just because the bible says something that does not mean that the result is true....(I am pretty sure that is a circular argument) 2:29 Fellow Israelites. Are the Israelites  the 10  tribes? ...If you want i can bend on calling them Jews because of Location not religion. Acts 4:17- Peter is calling those who killed Christ fellow Israelites. Peter and John where around the temple area.. Why fellow Israelites?  Acts 4: Peter is telling the rulers and high priests that they killed Christ.  In Verse 10 he is calling them Israel. 4:27- quoting psalms, Peter is calling them Israel. Acts 6:30 Israel to repetence and forgiven of there sins. In Acts 6: you have Hellenistic Jews(How can that be,are they from the tribe of Judah or from Jerusalem? Then we have Hebraic Jews(ok)  Then we see The jews of Cyrene and Alexandria as well  of Cilicia and Asia Minor who wanted Steven killed!  What type of Jews are they? They accused Steven of speaking against the law and that Christ would change the customs..This group of so called Jews did not follow the law of Moses..Acts 14:2-That a great number of Jews and Greeks believed.But the Jews who refused to believe stirred up the other Gentiles....Did these Jews follow the law of Moses or the new Babbylonia religion? This is what the bible Dictionary says for Jew -An Israelite;one of the chosen people of God a descendant of Abraham Through Jacob whom people can be saved.(.Really) When did a Jew become an Israelite?.....Lets look at Judaism- The Teaching of the Jewish religion...What religion?  It is called the law of Moses, not Judaism..  The meaning of Judahite-One of the tribes of Judah; a member of the kingdom of Judah   A Jew- Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, published 1913 by C. & G. Merriam.... Lets look at Colossians 3:11-12....? What about the scynthians and Barbarians? Who where located In Asia Minor are they Israel the 10 Northern Tribes....I will leave you with this..Hebrews 8:8- The days are coming declares the Lord when i will make a new covenant with the people of Israel and Judah....What does Judah mean in this verse? Thanks for the conversation.Timothy..

Comment by Donald on October 9, 2012 at 7:11am



In regard with 1 Peter 1:1 and James 1:1, I used to think they were the gentile Israelites (or the 10 tribes of Israel) but after some studies, it is more likely they were the Jews/Circumcised who were dispersed among the nations like in Acts 2:5-11. The reason is in Gal. 2:7-9. Notice it says that James, Peter, and John were sent to the Circumcised (Jews/Judeans who were still following the Law of Moses) as we seen in the epistles of James, Peter, and John while Paul was sent to the Uncircumcised/”Gentiles” (house of Israel). Make sense?

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