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Beyond Creation Science

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Beyond Creation Science

This is a group discussion about the book, "Beyond Creation Science" by Tim Martin and Jeff Vaughn and also their view on "Covenant Creation". Jeff Vaughn "JL" is a member of this site

Website: http://www.beyondcreationscience.com/
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Latest Activity: Feb 24, 2010

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Comment by Donald on February 24, 2010 at 12:23pm
Jeff,

Yeah, I’m surprised that many preterists ignore good arguments for a local flood. I think one of the reasons is that they are concerned about not all mankind came from Adam which can lead to Israel exclusive at the end. However, you believe all mankind can be saved since the Parousia of Christ which seems to be contradiction from the beginning (Genesis Creation), in my opinion.

About “all flesh”, these people were the descendants of Seth (“Sons of God” Gen. 6:4; 4:26; 5:3-32) and they were destroyed except 8 people. So, it is limited to the “covenant” people but I don’t feel comfortable to use this term until after Abraham through his son, Isaac. In Gen. 1-11 was a brief history about Abraham’s ancestors which Moses wrote about, preparing to enter the Promised Land.

I do not embrace your view but I am willing to listen what you have to say. I am having a hard time to see your view about H&E of Gen. 1:1 is the old covenant and its people and this is what Rev. 21:1 (recreation) is about. Also you do not think H&E in Gen. 1:1 is physical. I think you need to explain a little bit more why Gen. 1 H&E is not physical. Also in 2 Peter 3:3-13 seems speaking of physical which it was destroyed by the fire. I know you and other preterists have been debating about “H&E” being destroyed by fire, Gen. 1:1 or Mosaic Covenant. I think the latter make more sense to me at this point.

I still see Gen. 1-2 were the creation of the “sky” and the “land” within the Promised Land (“four corners of the earth/land/wind” and they were literal and earthly (people and land) which is type and anti-type of spiritual and heavenly in heaven for God's people.
Comment by JL Vaughn on February 24, 2010 at 11:34am
The 3rd edition came out 2 years ago. No plans for a 4th edition yet.
Comment by JL Vaughn on February 24, 2010 at 11:22am
Don,

As you are well aware, we have many preterist critics who claim the flood was global and ignore our arguments for a local flood. You and I agree that the flood was physically local, but that is just the beginning.

What does "all flesh" mean to you? Do you see this as all people? Universally? Or limited to the covenant people? Or limited in some other way?

Chapters 13-18 of BCS develop Covenant Creation. Our conclusion is, the "new heaven and new earth" of Covenant Eschatology are the Church, the Bride of Christ. The H&E of Gen. 1 is the H&E that Jesus said would pass away in the Olivet and John saw pass away in Rev. 21:1. So the H&E of Gen. 1:1 is the old covenant and old covenant people (or person) in total.

The new H&E is not physical. Neither is the Gen. 1 H&E. Both are of similar or concordant nature.

Since your view of the new H&E denies that it includes the post-AD-70 Church, I don't know how to make the comparison.
Comment by Donald on February 24, 2010 at 10:25am
Jeff,

We agreed that the flood was local and that’s settled but what do you mean about someone “ignored”? Do you mean me or someone else? I do not have your latest edition but what does it covered? How many editions so far?

We hold in full preterist view but there are various views within the camp, i.e. Immortal Body Now (IBN) vs Immortal Body at Death (IBD), “Rapture” (spiritual vs literal), “Heaven and Earth” in Rev.21-22 speaking of Genesis Creation vs Mosaic Creation, Israel exclusive vs all mankind, etc. That’s why I would like us to start discussion on Gen. 1-3 and see from there. This does not have to be about your book but it is relate to your view on Covenant Creation which you might publish another book in near future, aren’t you? :-)
Comment by JL Vaughn on February 24, 2010 at 9:27am
Donald,

I'd much rather make sure we have the Genesis Flood settled. That's the part that carries over from the previous editions, is well developed, and has been ignored.

Either that, or maybe start where the book starts, discussing our fairly novel development of preterism.

These are easier topics and will help us quickly find the common ground needed to properly explore Gen. 1.

Blessings
Comment by Donald on February 24, 2010 at 8:25am
Hello Jeff,

I guess this is a good place where we can discuss about your book and your view on “Covenant Creation” and see where we have common or differ. As you’ve seen in other thread on this forum, “Genesis Creation – Alternative”:

http://fulfilledtheology.ning.com/forum/topics/genesis-creation-alt...

What I would like to try focus on Gen. 1-3 first and do one subject at a time. I hope we can just “go with the flow” and keep it simple so that we can try to understand each other where we are coming from.

You seem agreed with me about the Genesis creation account in Gen. 1, correct? We know that the Genesis Creation was not about the creation of the universe, planet Earth and the mankind. Also it is not about “Old Earth Creation” (OEC) vs. “Young Earth Creation” (YEC) even though we agree on OEC view.

Let’s discuss about Gen. 1:1. What is your view on this verse? When it was began? What is “heavens and earth” means?
 

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