Ben,

A couple things about "resurrection."  

We know that Jesus wasn't the first person to be raised from the dead.  Both Elijah and Elisha raised people from the dead long before Jesus (1 Kings 17:24; 2 Kings 4:37).   As you noted, Lazarus was also raised from the dead (John 11) before the resurrection of Christ, as were Jarius' daughter (Mark 5) and the widow's son (Luke 7).

The difference may be in the fact that only Jesus "ascended" and went to the Father after his resurrection (Acts 1:9-11) which showed that he had permenantly conquered death.   Lazarus (i.e. "the disciple whom Jesus loved") and those others whom Jesus raised may have remained until the parousia and not seen death again (John 21:20-22).   Thus, the parousia would have been their "ascension" into heaven to be with Jesus and the Father (1 Corinthians 15:24-28).

Of course, there is no evidence that the people raised by Elijah or Elisha were still living at the time of Christ, so it's probably best to assume that they were not permenantly raised in the same sense as those who lived with Jesus during the last days.   Presumabley, those from the time of the prophets  would have part of "the dead ones" who were also raised at the Parousia (1 Thessalonians 4:13-17).

Rivers :)

riversofeden4@gmail.com

Hi Rivers: (Re: -- 'A couple things about "resurrection."'

Looks like I have my work cut out for me. I'll try to do my best with a beginning question:

Paragraph One: Truly, Jesus could not have been a first resurrection from the physically dead; therefore, let's cut to the chase, What was he resurrected from and into?  Apparently, he was resurrected from the Law, into His Kingdom! He was obligated, of course, to the Law until His physical death!

Paragraph Two: We are dancing around the symbolic subterfuge. The two men 'dressed in white' (Acts 1) Are they not significant? So, what is their significance? Oh, and by the way, Who are the Revelation 11 'two witnesses'? Could they signify those standing on both sides the river in Daniel 12? Your reference to 'ascended' does not infer levitation; therefore, What was necessary to signify Jesus' disappearance and for a like-manner reappearance in his 'coming,' or Parousia.? In this instance, he is enabled to take the throne seat. Where was his Father's throne? And what must occur to signify his return?  Jesus can now be described only as a spirit; What manner of manifestation must evidence his 'coming'? He was to come in the clouds, of course. But what must create the clouds making such prophetic fulfillment. Would not a huge army and its logistical support create great clouds and bring promised vengeance on the sons, daughters, and progeny of the fathers? Is it not possible?

I must ask: What do you mean by 'permanently conquered death'? What death? Jesus did not nor could his followers 'conquer physical death.' It was another death they set out to conquer (I Cor.15:26). This death was spiritual death, sin death, or death to the Law!

Here (reference to John 21), John was not raised from physical death as per your text, but was promised to live past the resurrection period, or Parousia.

Re: 1 Corinthians 15:24 - :28: Parousia was a vendication of those 'angelic' messages and prophecies urging loyalty to the God-husband, and vengeance on those denying the word and ignoring wifely ntegrity flounced in the face of a jealous God-husband. Too, no Inner Sanctum remained to house one spirit, much less thousands or millions.

Paragraph Three: None were 'permanently raised,' not even in the presence of Messiah. Where do you extract a sense of permanency in the transubstantiation of physical bodies into eternal existence? I gather that tradition extracts a presumption of eternal life in the dual legal-historicism assumed to have existed before the advent of such records. Also, like the misinformation concerning 'eternal,' how about inconsistency surrounding the abolishment of 'permanency'? How can you abolish something permanent. Is that not a bit incongruous? To my interception of symbols and numbers, no physically dead people were revived. or resurrected at Parousia. Only spiritually dead tribesmen were changed, killed, captured to be killed, converted, or resurrected into the new order at Parousia. But those slain or dying in the future, their memory cells, bones, blood, and flesh have disintegrated into the atoms and more minute particles once representing synergistic embodiment. How could there be a reassembly of those disintegrated parts now occupying the physical makeup of millions if not billions of other living human beings? (I also have an intense interest in physics, lol.)

II will try to address the other comments later. Right now, I have errands to run and a huge lawn to mow. Like every one else, I have to hustle before chores turn into crisis. lol

So we can read on the same page: Do you think the Four Kings in Daniel 11:2 are significant? I think most will be surprised to discover their true identity. Any ideas?

Best Regards,

Ben

Ben Winter

Author of:

THE GREAT DECEPTION: Symbols And Numbers Clarified

Hi Ben,

Here are some thoughts in reply to your comments. :)

1.  I don't see where you get the idea that "Jesus was resurrected (raised) from the Law" in scripture.    Being "raised from the dead" seems to mean coming out of a tomb where a person would "decay" (John 12:17; Acts 13:34).   I can see where accountability to the "Law" made the Israelites worthy of physical death and decay (1 Corinthians 15:56), but being "raised" or "resurrected" explicity referred to coming out of graves.

2.  I'm not sure what you are getting at with "ascension", but I do see "levitation" implied where the historical account of Jesus' ascension says that the disciples were "looking (up) into the sky (heaven)" and that Jesus was "taken up into the skies (heavens)" and that they "watched him go (up) into the sky (heaven)" (Acts 1:9-11).

3.  What I mean by "permenantly conquered death" is what Paul explained in Acts 13:34 that being "raised from the dead" was "to no longer return to decay".   The "decay" was referring to what happens when a dead person's body (i.e. soul) was put in a grave and rotted away (Acts 2:31-32).

4.  I don't see where you are getting "a different death" out of 1 Corinthians 15:26.   Paul seems to be explicitly referring to Christ's historical resurrection out of a grave (1 Corinthians 15:4; 1 Corinthians 15:20).   Where do you see him changing what "resurrection" means anywhere in the context?

5.  I think the "disciple whom Jesus loved" in John 21:7 was Lazarus (and not Apostle John).   Please see John 11:5 and John 11:36.  These are the only texts where it was said that Jesus "loved" a particular male disciple (i.e. Lazarus) in the Fourth Gospel.

6.  I open to consider what you have to say about the 4 Kings in Daniel.  I haven't studied it that much.  Please share it with us.

Rivers :)

riversofeden4@gmail.com