The "Jews" and the "Gentiles" - Fulfilled Theology - Preterist2024-03-29T08:10:37Zhttp://fulfilledtheology.ning.com/forum/topics/the-jews-and-the-gentiles?commentId=5096844%3AComment%3A5707&feed=yes&xn_auth=noHi Donald,
Yes, I think tha…tag:fulfilledtheology.ning.com,2012-06-27:5096844:Comment:68112012-06-27T18:34:02.164ZRiversOfEdenhttp://fulfilledtheology.ning.com/profile/RiversOfEden
<p>Hi Donald,</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Yes, I think that is correct. In the context of 1 Kings 8, I think the "foreigner" is referring to scattered Israelites for many reasons based upon the fact that a "foreigner" could simply be someone who no longer had an inheritance in the land of Israel because they were sold into slavery or resided far away from the rest of the people.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>For example Rachel and Leah were regarded as "foreigners" by their own father, Laban, because they had moved…</p>
<p>Hi Donald,</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Yes, I think that is correct. In the context of 1 Kings 8, I think the "foreigner" is referring to scattered Israelites for many reasons based upon the fact that a "foreigner" could simply be someone who no longer had an inheritance in the land of Israel because they were sold into slavery or resided far away from the rest of the people.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>For example Rachel and Leah were regarded as "foreigners" by their own father, Laban, because they had moved far away from their home to live with Jacob (<a class="lbsBibleRef" href="http://biblia.com/bible/esv/Genesis%2031.14-16" target="_blank">Genesis 31:14-16</a>) and no longer had any right to an "inheritance" where they were originally born. I think this gives us some insight into how the word "foreigner" was understood and could be applied to a fellow Israelite.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>As we see in <a class="lbsBibleRef" href="http://biblia.com/bible/esv/Matthew%2010.5-6" target="_blank">Matthew 10:5-6</a> and <a class="lbsBibleRef" href="http://biblia.com/bible/esv/Matthew%2015.24" target="_blank">Matthew 15:24</a>, there was a sense in which "the house of Israel" in the NT sometimes referred to the covenant people who resided in Judea, as opposed to other Israelites who were born or resided outside of Judea (e.g. the Samaritans, <a class="lbsBibleRef" href="http://biblia.com/bible/esv/John%204.9-12" target="_blank">John 4:9-12</a> and Galileans, <a class="lbsBibleRef" href="http://biblia.com/bible/esv/Matthew%204.15" target="_blank">Matthew 4:15</a>). The word "foreigner" is not a racial term in scripture.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Rivers :)</p>
<p><a href="mailto:riversofeden4@gmail.com" rel="nofollow">riversofeden4@gmail.com</a></p> Rivers,
Thanks. In regard w…tag:fulfilledtheology.ning.com,2012-06-27:5096844:Comment:68102012-06-27T17:42:09.275ZDonaldhttp://fulfilledtheology.ning.com/profile/Donald
<p>Rivers,</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Thanks. In regard with the “foreigner” (Heb: <em>nokriy</em>/Strong's #5237) in 1 Kings 8:41-43, is it referring to the Hebrew race who came from a far country to worship God? Also in verse 43 says, “all of the peoples” (Heb: <em>am</em>/Strong's #5971) of the land referring to members of one’s people, country-men, kinsman, kindred as the people of Israel, correct?</p>
<p>Rivers,</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Thanks. In regard with the “foreigner” (Heb: <em>nokriy</em>/Strong's #5237) in 1 Kings 8:41-43, is it referring to the Hebrew race who came from a far country to worship God? Also in verse 43 says, “all of the peoples” (Heb: <em>am</em>/Strong's #5971) of the land referring to members of one’s people, country-men, kinsman, kindred as the people of Israel, correct?</p> Hi Donald,
It's possible tha…tag:fulfilledtheology.ning.com,2012-06-26:5096844:Comment:68092012-06-26T23:17:36.007ZRiversOfEdenhttp://fulfilledtheology.ning.com/profile/RiversOfEden
<p>Hi Donald,</p>
<p></p>
<p>It's possible that it could be inclusive of the Hebrews 11:17-38, but that still wouldn't necessarily mean that "Abel" or "Rahab the Harlot" was included in the covenants and promises made with "the Israelites according to the flesh" (Romans 9:3-5). </p>
<p> </p>
<p>The point of the passage is just to show that there were people in the OT who were commended by God for their faith in times of trouble and temptation. It isn't a passage about who was eligible for…</p>
<p>Hi Donald,</p>
<p></p>
<p>It's possible that it could be inclusive of the Hebrews 11:17-38, but that still wouldn't necessarily mean that "Abel" or "Rahab the Harlot" was included in the covenants and promises made with "the Israelites according to the flesh" (Romans 9:3-5). </p>
<p> </p>
<p>The point of the passage is just to show that there were people in the OT who were commended by God for their faith in times of trouble and temptation. It isn't a passage about who was eligible for salvation or eternal life under the new covenant.</p>
<p></p>
<p>Also, Hebrews 11 is within the greater context of the letter to the Hebrews who were a specific geneaology of people (Hebrews 2:14-16) who were the recipients of God's revelation through the prophets (Hebrews 1:1).</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Rivers :)</p>
<p><a href="mailto:riversofeden@gmail.com" rel="nofollow">riversofeden@gmail.com</a></p> Rivers,
Hmm...interesting t…tag:fulfilledtheology.ning.com,2012-06-26:5096844:Comment:68082012-06-26T20:17:10.661ZDonaldhttp://fulfilledtheology.ning.com/profile/Donald
<p>Rivers,</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Hmm...interesting thought of yours. I always thought the "and all these" in Heb. 11:39 referring to Heb. 11:17-38 with the list of people "by faith."</p>
<p>Rivers,</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Hmm...interesting thought of yours. I always thought the "and all these" in Heb. 11:39 referring to Heb. 11:17-38 with the list of people "by faith."</p> Hi Donald,
As far as we can…tag:fulfilledtheology.ning.com,2012-06-26:5096844:Comment:68072012-06-26T19:58:17.030ZRiversOfEdenhttp://fulfilledtheology.ning.com/profile/RiversOfEden
<p>Hi Donald,</p>
<p> </p>
<p>As far as we can tell, Rahab the harlot was not an Israelite or allowed to be part of the congregation of Israel (<a class="lbsBibleRef" href="http://biblia.com/bible/esv/Joshua%206.23" target="_blank">Joshua 6:23</a>). According to Hebrews she was saved from dying at the hands of Joshua's armies on account of her faith (<a class="lbsBibleRef" href="http://biblia.com/bible/esv/Hebrews%2011.31" target="_blank">Hebrews 11:31</a>).</p>
<p> </p>
<p>The "and all these"…</p>
<p>Hi Donald,</p>
<p> </p>
<p>As far as we can tell, Rahab the harlot was not an Israelite or allowed to be part of the congregation of Israel (<a class="lbsBibleRef" href="http://biblia.com/bible/esv/Joshua%206.23" target="_blank">Joshua 6:23</a>). According to Hebrews she was saved from dying at the hands of Joshua's armies on account of her faith (<a class="lbsBibleRef" href="http://biblia.com/bible/esv/Hebrews%2011.31" target="_blank">Hebrews 11:31</a>).</p>
<p> </p>
<p>The "and all these" in <a class="lbsBibleRef" href="http://biblia.com/bible/esv/Hebrews%2011.39" target="_blank">Hebrews 11:39</a> is grammatically referring back to <a class="lbsBibleRef" href="http://biblia.com/bible/esv/Hebrews%2011.32" target="_blank">Hebrews 11:32</a> where it speaks of additional heroes in the history of Israel. Notice the transitional word "and" in <a class="lbsBibleRef" href="http://biblia.com/bible/esv/Hebrews%2011.32" target="_blank">Hebrews 11:32</a> that separates it (grammatically) from <a class="lbsBibleRef" href="http://biblia.com/bible/esv/Hebrews%2011.31" target="_blank">Hebrews 11:31</a>. </p>
<p> </p>
<p>Another reason I don't think it was the author's intent to suggest that Rahab the harlot was part of Israel's blessing is because because the "us" that appears twice in <a class="lbsBibleRef" href="http://biblia.com/bible/esv/Hebrews%2011.40" target="_blank">Hebrews 11:40</a> puts the discussion back in the context of "partakers of flesh and blood ... the children of Abraham" (<a class="lbsBibleRef" href="http://biblia.com/bible/esv/Hebrews%202.14-16" target="_blank">Hebrews 2:14-16</a>) that are the subject of the whole book of Hebrews.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Rivers :)</p>
<p><a href="mailto:riversofeden4@gmail.com" rel="nofollow">riversofeden4@gmail.com</a></p> Rivers,
How do you deal wit…tag:fulfilledtheology.ning.com,2012-06-26:5096844:Comment:67032012-06-26T14:28:01.599ZDonaldhttp://fulfilledtheology.ning.com/profile/Donald
<p>Rivers,</p>
<p> </p>
<p>How do you deal with Rahab the harlot (Heb. 11:31)? Was she a Canaanite? She and her family were placed outside the camp of Israel (Joshua 6:23) but she has gained approval through her faith which God had provided something better (Heb. 11:39-40).</p>
<p>Rivers,</p>
<p> </p>
<p>How do you deal with Rahab the harlot (Heb. 11:31)? Was she a Canaanite? She and her family were placed outside the camp of Israel (Joshua 6:23) but she has gained approval through her faith which God had provided something better (Heb. 11:39-40).</p>
Hi Vinnie,
Great questi…tag:fulfilledtheology.ning.com,2012-06-22:5096844:Comment:68052012-06-22T19:46:05.803ZRiversOfEdenhttp://fulfilledtheology.ning.com/profile/RiversOfEden
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
<p>Hi Vinnie,</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Great questions! Here are some things to think about with respect to the Syrophenecian woman and the actual words that are used to describe her.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>1. The word "Gentile" in <a class="lbsBibleRef" href="http://biblia.com/bible/esv/Mark%207.26" target="_blank">Mark 7:26</a> is actually the word for "Greek" or "Grecian" (HELLENIS) and not the usual word for the "gentiles". The term "Greek" was used in scripture of Israelites who…</p>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
<p>Hi Vinnie,</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Great questions! Here are some things to think about with respect to the Syrophenecian woman and the actual words that are used to describe her.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>1. The word "Gentile" in <a class="lbsBibleRef" href="http://biblia.com/bible/esv/Mark%207.26" target="_blank">Mark 7:26</a> is actually the word for "Greek" or "Grecian" (HELLENIS) and not the usual word for the "gentiles". The term "Greek" was used in scripture of Israelites who were not following the "Jewish" religion of the native-born Hebrews (<a class="lbsBibleRef" href="http://biblia.com/bible/esv/John%207.35" target="_blank">John 7:35</a>; <a class="lbsBibleRef" href="http://biblia.com/bible/esv/Acts%206.1" target="_blank">Acts 6:1</a>). It was also used interchangeably with "gentiles" for those who were "uncircumcised" descendants of Abraham (<a class="lbsBibleRef" href="http://biblia.com/bible/esv/Romans%203.9" target="_blank">Romans 3:9</a>, <a class="lbsBibleRef" href="http://biblia.com/bible/esv/Romans%203.19" target="_blank">19</a>; <a class="lbsBibleRef" href="http://biblia.com/bible/esv/Romans%204.1" target="_blank">Romans 4:1</a>; <a class="lbsBibleRef" href="http://biblia.com/bible/esv/Romans%204.16" target="_blank">Romans 4:16</a>).</p>
<p> </p>
<p>2. The word "race" in <a class="lbsBibleRef" href="http://biblia.com/bible/esv/Mark%207.26" target="_blank">Mark 7:26</a> is from the Greek word GENOS which simply means place of birth (i.e nationality). For example, the word GENOS is used elsewhere to speak of a "Levite" who was "of the country (GENOS) of Cyprus" (<a class="lbsBibleRef" href="http://biblia.com/bible/esv/Acts%204.36" target="_blank">Acts 4:36</a>). Thus, an Israelite by "race" could have a different "nationality" depending upon where he lived. In <a class="lbsBibleRef" href="http://biblia.com/bible/esv/Acts%202.8" target="_blank">Acts 2:8</a>-11, the word is used to speak of the "devout Jews" (Acts 2:5) who were "born" (GENNAW) in foreign countries and spoke the foreign languages of those regions.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>3. The word "Syropheonician" (<a class="lbsBibleRef" href="http://biblia.com/bible/esv/Mark%207.26" target="_blank">Mark 7:26</a>) identifies what region the woman came from in the same way that the words "Cretan" and "Arab" and "Egyptian" identified where the "devout Jews" came from at Pentecost (<a class="lbsBibleRef" href="http://biblia.com/bible/esv/Acts%202.5-11" target="_blank">Acts 2:5-11</a>). We also know this because "Syropheonician" modifies the word "nationality" (GENOS). Thus, her nationality was "Syrophoenician" because of where she lived (and not because of her race). This is like the "Levite" (Israelite) from "Cyprus" (<a class="lbsBibleRef" href="http://biblia.com/bible/esv/Acts%204.36" target="_blank">Acts 4:36</a>). He would have been called a "Cyprian" (because of where he lived) but he was still of the Israelites tribe of Levi. "Nationalities" in the ancient world did not depend upon one's "race."</p>
<p> </p>
<p>4. The Syropheonician woman was like the "Samarian" woman Jesus met at the well. Although she was called a "Samaritan" (because of where she lived and worshipped), she was also a descendant of Jacob (Israel) just like Jesus (<a class="lbsBibleRef" href="http://biblia.com/bible/esv/John%204.9-12" target="_blank">John 4:9-12</a>). This shows that "nationalities" do not necessarily indicate "race" in scripture. In the story of the Samaritan woman, we are told that "Jews had no dealings with Samaritans" (John 4:9) even through both the Jews and Samaritans all had "Jacob" (Israel) as their "father" (John 4:12).</p>
<p> </p>
<p>5. In <a class="lbsBibleRef" href="http://biblia.com/bible/esv/Matthew%2015.22" target="_blank">Matthew 15:22</a>, the woman is referred to as a "Canaanite." The context explains that Jesus had juar left Judea and gone into the "district of Tyre and Sidon" (<a class="lbsBibleRef" href="http://biblia.com/bible/esv/Matthew%2015.21" target="_blank">Matthew 15:21</a>) and that the woman "came from that region" (<a class="lbsBibleRef" href="http://biblia.com/bible/esv/Matthew%2015.22" target="_blank">Matthew 15:22</a>). Thus, the term "Canaanite" is another reference to her place of birth (or language) and not her "race."</p>
<p> </p>
<p>6. The part about "the lost sheep of the house of Israel" could be taken 2 ways. Jesus had already told the disciples "do not go into the way of the Samaritans or the Gentiles but go to the lost sheep of the house of Israel" (<a class="lbsBibleRef" href="http://biblia.com/bible/esv/Matthew%2010.5-6" target="_blank">Matthew 10:5-6</a>) This shows that "the house of Israel" in some sense was contrasted with "Samaritans" and "Gentiles" by geographic region even though some "Samarians" (<a class="lbsBibleRef" href="http://biblia.com/bible/esv/John%204.9-12" target="_blank">John 4:9-12</a>) and "Gentiles" (<a class="lbsBibleRef" href="http://biblia.com/bible/esv/Matthew%204.15" target="_blank">Matthew 4:15</a>) were also Israelites. It seems that the Jews in Judea only regarded their own district as "Israel."</p>
<p> </p>
<p>The main thing to think about here is that the biblical evidence shows that "nationalities" (e.g. Samaritan, Syrophoenician, Ethiopian, etc) were not used in scripture to identify a person's race. Israelites who were born outside of Judea and did not speak Hebrew were considered "Greeks" or "Gentiles" or "foreigners" even though they were still descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (<a class="lbsBibleRef" href="http://biblia.com/bible/esv/Romans%204.1" target="_blank">Romans 4:1</a>; <a class="lbsBibleRef" href="http://biblia.com/bible/esv/Romans%204.16" target="_blank">Romans 4:16</a>; <a class="lbsBibleRef" href="http://biblia.com/bible/esv/John%204.9-12" target="_blank">John 4:9-12</a>) by genealogy.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>The term "Jew" in scripture refers to a certain religious sect of Israelites that "circumcised according to the customs of Moses" (<a class="lbsBibleRef" href="http://biblia.com/bible/esv/Acts%2015.1-3" target="_blank">Acts 15:1-3</a>). Terms like "Greeks" and "Samaritans" were used of other Israelites who did not follow the religious practices of the "Jews" but were still descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (<a class="lbsBibleRef" href="http://biblia.com/bible/esv/John%207.35" target="_blank">John 7:35</a>; <a class="lbsBibleRef" href="http://biblia.com/bible/esv/John%204.9-12" target="_blank">John 4:9-12</a>; <a class="lbsBibleRef" href="http://biblia.com/bible/esv/Romans%204.1" target="_blank">Romans 4:1</a>, <a class="lbsBibleRef" href="http://biblia.com/bible/esv/Romans%204.16" target="_blank">16</a>). </p>
<p> </p>
<p>I think misunderstandings arise because most people who study the Bible simply assume that all Israelites were "Jews" and aren't taking the rest of the evidence into consideration. Even most preterists are using "Jew" synonymously with "Israelite" and cause a lot of confusion.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Rivers :)</p>
<p><a href="mailto:riversofeden4@gmail.com" rel="nofollow">riversofeden4@gmail.com</a></p> Hi Don and Rivers,
This speci…tag:fulfilledtheology.ning.com,2012-06-21:5096844:Comment:68022012-06-21T18:27:22.203ZVinnie Siroishttp://fulfilledtheology.ning.com/profile/VinnieSirois
<p>Hi Don and Rivers,</p>
<p>This specific Blog/Forum has been a tremendous help for me to understand the whole issue of the Gentiles being the scattered House of Israel, and the Jews/Judah still being in covenant with God in the first century city of Jerusalem.<br></br> You two have done a great job in explaining God's specific covenant with a specific people (National Israel) and I couldn't agree more.</p>
<p>But I'm having a problem with 2 parallel passages in the Gospels, and I'm hoping you can…</p>
<p>Hi Don and Rivers,</p>
<p>This specific Blog/Forum has been a tremendous help for me to understand the whole issue of the Gentiles being the scattered House of Israel, and the Jews/Judah still being in covenant with God in the first century city of Jerusalem.<br/> You two have done a great job in explaining God's specific covenant with a specific people (National Israel) and I couldn't agree more.</p>
<p>But I'm having a problem with 2 parallel passages in the Gospels, and I'm hoping you can shed some detailed light for me.</p>
<p>The passages are Mark 7:25-31 and Matt.15: 21-28.</p>
<p>In Mark, it says that the woman is a Syro-Phoenician BY RACE/Birth<br/> In Matthew, it says that she is a Canaanite woman.</p>
<p>In Matthew 15, Jesus says that He has not come except for the lost sheep of Israel. He said THAT statement after the disciples tell Him to send her away (because she's a Gentile).<br/> Jesus then says to the woman, "It is not right to take the children's bread and cast it to dogs".</p>
<p>What I want to ask is this----</p>
<p>Does this show that she was a non-Israelite by race, or did this show that she was a dispersed Israelite that was saved by faith apart from works ?</p>
<p>Thanks for your time, Vinnie</p> Hi Timothy,
According to sc…tag:fulfilledtheology.ning.com,2012-05-23:5096844:Comment:62452012-05-23T12:54:32.954ZRiversOfEdenhttp://fulfilledtheology.ning.com/profile/RiversOfEden
<p>Hi Timothy,</p>
<p> </p>
<p>According to scripture, "every person" who belonged to Israel and Christianity was resurrected for judgment at the time of the parousia during the apostolic generation (Matthew 16:27-28; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17; 1 Corinthians 15:23-24). The believers were taken to be with the Lord in the heavens and the unbelievers were destroyed (Revelation 20:11-15). That's all we know from scripture.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Speculating about what happened several hundred years…</p>
<p>Hi Timothy,</p>
<p> </p>
<p>According to scripture, "every person" who belonged to Israel and Christianity was resurrected for judgment at the time of the parousia during the apostolic generation (Matthew 16:27-28; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17; 1 Corinthians 15:23-24). The believers were taken to be with the Lord in the heavens and the unbelievers were destroyed (Revelation 20:11-15). That's all we know from scripture.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Speculating about what happened several hundred years after the parousia is fruitless. Just because the Church Fathers claimed to be "Christians" doesn't make it true. For example, the modern "Jews" that we know today have nothing to do with the Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob of scripture. Their genealogical heritage is of Mongolian and Germanic origin. They are merely called "Jews" because they "adopted" the religion of Judaism and eventually migrated to the country we call "Israel" today.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Likewise, perhaps the Church Fathers merely adopted the Christian "religion" without any relation to the true God or Jesus at all.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Rivers :)</p>
<p><a href="mailto:riversofeden4@gmail.com" rel="nofollow">riversofeden4@gmail.com</a></p> Hello Lads,
Is there any writ…tag:fulfilledtheology.ning.com,2012-05-23:5096844:Comment:60682012-05-23T03:41:49.381Ztimothy Wallacehttp://fulfilledtheology.ning.com/profile/timothyWallace
<p>Hello Lads,</p>
<p>Is there any writings from Jewish,Abraham Israelites pertaining to the completion of the new covenant? Why did non-Israelites believe in Christ if it was for Israel only? Why were the church fathers non-Jewish? If the gospel had nothing to do with Gentiles don't you think some Jews would of told them? I find it hard to believe that before and after Christ came there were no Gentile's coming into the church who had nothing to do with israel or Abraham.... Did any of the…</p>
<p>Hello Lads,</p>
<p>Is there any writings from Jewish,Abraham Israelites pertaining to the completion of the new covenant? Why did non-Israelites believe in Christ if it was for Israel only? Why were the church fathers non-Jewish? If the gospel had nothing to do with Gentiles don't you think some Jews would of told them? I find it hard to believe that before and after Christ came there were no Gentile's coming into the church who had nothing to do with israel or Abraham.... Did any of the Celtics, Anglo-Saxons, Gauls,etc who were pagan's come to Christ? Every single Greek or Italian who heard the Apostles preach who were non-Israelites/Abraham's seed did not come to Christ? All these historians and Gentile non- Israelites became Christians?</p>
<p>Thank you</p>
<p>Timothy Wallace</p>