The Covenant World - Fulfilled Theology - Preterist2024-03-29T09:10:06Zhttp://fulfilledtheology.ning.com/forum/topics/the-covenant-world?commentId=5096844%3AComment%3A6202&feed=yes&xn_auth=noRivers,
Thanks for your insi…tag:fulfilledtheology.ning.com,2012-05-17:5096844:Comment:59472012-05-17T02:00:23.964ZJohn Marrahttp://fulfilledtheology.ning.com/profile/JohnMarra
<p>Rivers,</p>
<p></p>
<p>Thanks for your insights on this passage. They appear to make a lot of sense in light of the immediate context.</p>
<p></p>
<p>Rivers,</p>
<p></p>
<p>Thanks for your insights on this passage. They appear to make a lot of sense in light of the immediate context.</p>
<p></p> Response to John Marra's post…tag:fulfilledtheology.ning.com,2012-05-15:5096844:Comment:60212012-05-15T19:04:30.186ZRiversOfEdenhttp://fulfilledtheology.ning.com/profile/RiversOfEden
<p>Response to John Marra's post from Facebook Group:</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Hi John,</p>
<p> </p>
<p>If we consider the context of Hebrews 1-10, it is evident that the writer is not trying to prove that Jesus present during the time of the Genesis 1-2 creation. The writer of Hebrews is simply trying to prove that Jesus is superior to "angels" because he is God's own flesh and blood "son." Please consider the evidence:</p>
<p> </p>
<p>1. God didn't speak through Jesus until "the last days"…</p>
<p>Response to John Marra's post from Facebook Group:</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Hi John,</p>
<p> </p>
<p>If we consider the context of Hebrews 1-10, it is evident that the writer is not trying to prove that Jesus present during the time of the Genesis 1-2 creation. The writer of Hebrews is simply trying to prove that Jesus is superior to "angels" because he is God's own flesh and blood "son." Please consider the evidence:</p>
<p> </p>
<p>1. God didn't speak through Jesus until "the last days" (Hebrews 1:1)</p>
<p>2. Jesus was not exalted until after he was born, died, and was raised (Hebrews 1:3-4)</p>
<p>3. Jesus wasn't God's "son" until he was "born" (Hebrews 1:5; Luke 1:35)</p>
<p>4. Jesus was called "the firstborn" when he was born (Hebrews 1:6)</p>
<p>5. Jesus was "annointed" by God at his baptism (Hebrews 1:9)</p>
<p>6. Jesus was given eternal life at his resurrection (Hebrews 1:12)</p>
<p>7. Jesus was exalted after his resurrection (Hebrews 1:13)</p>
<p> </p>
<p>This sets the historical context of when the writer of Hebrews is associating Jesus with "the foundation of the earth in the beginning." Since Jesus didn't exist until he was "begotten in the last days", we should understand that Jesus participated in the creation only in the sense that it was God, his Father, who existed before Him and created the world.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>We can't interpret Hebrews 1:10-12 as something that happened in Genesis 1-2 when the entire context of the passage is about "the last days" after Jesus was "begotten" and exalted. Thus, the writer is simply quoting from the Psalms to demonstrate that all things that belonged to God the Father were now the inheritance of His only "son." The angels were merely "servants" in God's house (Hebrews 1:14) and could never be hiers.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>This is the same figure of speech that the writer used to explain how "Levi" was paying tithes to Melchizedek long before he was born because he did it through his biological father, Abraham (Hebrews 7:10). Thus, the ancient Israelites understood that a "son" could lay claim to the accomplishments of his "father" who came before him.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Rivers :)</p>
<p><a href="mailto:riversofeden4@gmail.com" rel="nofollow">riversofeden4@gmail.com</a></p> From John Marra's post in Fac…tag:fulfilledtheology.ning.com,2012-05-15:5096844:Comment:62022012-05-15T13:52:27.937ZDonaldhttp://fulfilledtheology.ning.com/profile/Donald
<p>From John Marra's post in Facebook group (Preterist and Fulfilled Theology):</p>
<p> </p>
<p>"Don, I haven't done enough exegetical work in this area to have a definitive answer. I'm still trying to learn and figure it out myself. It does seems obvious to me that the "first heaven and earth" that passed away pertained to the Mosaic ...Covenant (Ish. 51:16; Mt. 5:17-19 cf. Rev. 21:1). However, I also think it is related to the "heaven and earth" of Genesis 1 & 2 which I think is the…</p>
<p>From John Marra's post in Facebook group (Preterist and Fulfilled Theology):</p>
<p> </p>
<p>"Don, I haven't done enough exegetical work in this area to have a definitive answer. I'm still trying to learn and figure it out myself. It does seems obvious to me that the "first heaven and earth" that passed away pertained to the Mosaic ...Covenant (Ish. 51:16; Mt. 5:17-19 cf. Rev. 21:1). However, I also think it is related to the "heaven and earth" of Genesis 1 & 2 which I think is the geographical region of the promised land since the connection seems to be made in the biblical language between that geographical area (specifically Jerusalem) and the covenant (Gal. 4:21-26 cf. Rev. 21:2-4). That said, how that relates to the "heavens and earth" that Christ is credited with laying the foundation of and that will also perish (Heb. 1:10-12), I'm still very unclear on. As I said, I'm still learning and trying to figure this all out within the perspective of the a truly consistent Full Preterist hermeneutic and all the theological implications which flow<br/>from it."</p> Rivers,
I understand what y…tag:fulfilledtheology.ning.com,2012-05-11:5096844:Comment:60092012-05-11T19:23:25.735ZDonaldhttp://fulfilledtheology.ning.com/profile/Donald
<p>Rivers,</p>
<p> </p>
<p>I understand what you're saying but to be honest with you, I am not satisfied in Heb. 1:10-11. Maybe you could "translate" it for me? I need to know what are: 1. "of old"; 2. "heavens and earth"; 3. "they shall perish"?</p>
<p>Rivers,</p>
<p> </p>
<p>I understand what you're saying but to be honest with you, I am not satisfied in Heb. 1:10-11. Maybe you could "translate" it for me? I need to know what are: 1. "of old"; 2. "heavens and earth"; 3. "they shall perish"?</p> Hi Rivers,
So, you still be…tag:fulfilledtheology.ning.com,2012-05-11:5096844:Comment:57982012-05-11T16:30:48.011ZDonaldhttp://fulfilledtheology.ning.com/profile/Donald
<p>Hi Rivers,</p>
<p> </p>
<p>So, you still believe "first heavens and earth" referring to old covenant = Mosaic covenant, nothing do with Gen. 1-2?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>What does "no more sea" mean to you? Was it something to do with the temple with "brazen sea"?</p>
<p>Hi Rivers,</p>
<p> </p>
<p>So, you still believe "first heavens and earth" referring to old covenant = Mosaic covenant, nothing do with Gen. 1-2?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>What does "no more sea" mean to you? Was it something to do with the temple with "brazen sea"?</p> Hi Donald,
I think you're m…tag:fulfilledtheology.ning.com,2012-05-11:5096844:Comment:61022012-05-11T16:21:02.862ZRiversOfEdenhttp://fulfilledtheology.ning.com/profile/RiversOfEden
<p>Hi Donald,</p>
<p> </p>
<p>I think you're making it too complicated in Hebrews 1:10-11. I don't think the author of Hebrews is trying to comment on the "Mosaic covenant" here at all.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>In the context, the writer is simply trying to show that Jesus was superior to the angels because he was the biological son of God (Hebrews 1:5). Since God the Father was the creator of the "heavens and earth" (i.e. the Promised Land and the covenant), He could delegate superior authority to…</p>
<p>Hi Donald,</p>
<p> </p>
<p>I think you're making it too complicated in Hebrews 1:10-11. I don't think the author of Hebrews is trying to comment on the "Mosaic covenant" here at all.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>In the context, the writer is simply trying to show that Jesus was superior to the angels because he was the biological son of God (Hebrews 1:5). Since God the Father was the creator of the "heavens and earth" (i.e. the Promised Land and the covenant), He could delegate superior authority to His own son (by right of inheritance) over the lesser "servants" (i.e. angels) in His Kingdom (Hebrews 1:6-7) who had been mediating His covenant up until Jesus appeared (Hebrews 2:5-8).</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Because Jesus was the only biological "son of God" (Hebrews 1:5; John 1:18), he could lay claim to having been the creator of the world while in the loins of His Father in the same manner of speaking that the writer of Hebrews said that Abraham's son, Levi, "paid tithes" long before he was born because Abraham was his father when Abraham met with Melchizedek (Hebrews 7:9).</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Thus, from the perspective of the ancient Israelites, Jesus was the creator long before his birth by virtue of later coming into existence as the "son" of God when he was born of Mary by the power of holy spirit (Luke 1:35; John 1:18). None of this language requires us to think that Jesus existing before his human birth or that he was the actual creator in Genesis 1-2.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>I don't think we need to try to break down every word of Hebrews 1:10-11 because the purpose of the writer (in that context) was simply to quote a few scriptures to prove that Jesus was superior to the angels and qualified to administer a new covenant on God's behalf (even though all men born before him were considered "lower than the angels").</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Rivers :)</p>
<p><a href="mailto:riversofeden4@gmail.com" rel="nofollow">riversofeden4@gmail.com</a></p> Rivers,
I decided to go bac…tag:fulfilledtheology.ning.com,2012-05-10:5096844:Comment:56002012-05-10T21:16:43.443ZDonaldhttp://fulfilledtheology.ning.com/profile/Donald
<p>Rivers,</p>
<p> </p>
<p>I decided to go back and re-read Hebrews 1:10-11 from Concordant Version. Seems to me what I’m seeing:</p>
<p> </p>
<p>And, Thou (Jesus), originally, Lord (Jesus?), dost found the earth (new heaven and earth?),<br></br>And the heavens (new heavens and earth?) are the works of Thy (Jesus?) hands.<br></br>They (Mosaic covenant) shall perish, yet Thou (Jesus?) art continuing,<br></br>And all, as a cloak, shall be aged,<br></br>And, as if clothing, wilt Thou (Jesus?) be rolling them…</p>
<p>Rivers,</p>
<p> </p>
<p>I decided to go back and re-read Hebrews 1:10-11 from Concordant Version. Seems to me what I’m seeing:</p>
<p> </p>
<p>And, Thou (Jesus), originally, Lord (Jesus?), dost found the earth (new heaven and earth?),<br/>And the heavens (new heavens and earth?) are the works of Thy (Jesus?) hands.<br/>They (Mosaic covenant) shall perish, yet Thou (Jesus?) art continuing,<br/>And all, as a cloak, shall be aged,<br/>And, as if clothing, wilt Thou (Jesus?) be rolling them up.<br/>As a cloak also shall they (heavens and earth/Mosaic covenant) change.<br/>Yet Thou (Jesus) art the same,<br/>And Thy (Jesus) years shall not be defaulting.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>What do you think?</p> Hi Donald,
I think the refe…tag:fulfilledtheology.ning.com,2012-05-10:5096844:Comment:60052012-05-10T16:02:10.110ZRiversOfEdenhttp://fulfilledtheology.ning.com/profile/RiversOfEden
<p>Hi Donald,</p>
<p> </p>
<p>I think the reference to "first heavens and earth" in Revelation 21:1-4 would be referring to both the Law and the Land (because they are inseperable after the Abrahamic promise). Also, the mention of "all things new" and "passing away" and "second death" show that it is referring to those (i.e. all Israelites) who were "under the Law" (Matthew 5:17-20; Romans 3:19-20; 2 Corinthians 5:17-20, etc).</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Keep in mind that, when God promised Abraham that…</p>
<p>Hi Donald,</p>
<p> </p>
<p>I think the reference to "first heavens and earth" in Revelation 21:1-4 would be referring to both the Law and the Land (because they are inseperable after the Abrahamic promise). Also, the mention of "all things new" and "passing away" and "second death" show that it is referring to those (i.e. all Israelites) who were "under the Law" (Matthew 5:17-20; Romans 3:19-20; 2 Corinthians 5:17-20, etc).</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Keep in mind that, when God promised Abraham that the "Land" would belong to him and his "descendants AFTER him" (Genesis 15:18; Genesis 17:5-8), the Law did not come until later and was "added" (Galatians 3:16-22). It's important to account for the fact that those to whom Jesus and the apostles were sent included only "the twelve tribes of Israel" (Matthew 15:24; Matthew 19:28; Revelation 21:12).</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Revelation 21:1-4 follows after what is written about the judgement of Israel (according to the Law) in Revelation 20:11-15.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Rivers :)</p>
<p><a href="mailto:riversofeden4@gmail.com">riversofeden4@gmail.com</a></p> Rivers,
Ok, I'll think this…tag:fulfilledtheology.ning.com,2012-05-10:5096844:Comment:60042012-05-10T13:50:14.293ZDonaldhttp://fulfilledtheology.ning.com/profile/Donald
<p>Rivers,</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Ok, I'll think this over. Thanks.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Can you please check "What was the first heaven and earth passed away in Rev. 21?" thread? Was is from Gen. 1-2 or the Mosaic covenant?</p>
<p> </p>
<p><a href="http://fulfilledtheology.ning.com/forum/topics/what-was-the-first-heaven-and-earth-passed-away-in-rev-21" target="_blank">http://fulfilledtheology.ning.com/forum/topics/what-was-the-first-h...</a></p>
<p>Rivers,</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Ok, I'll think this over. Thanks.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Can you please check "What was the first heaven and earth passed away in Rev. 21?" thread? Was is from Gen. 1-2 or the Mosaic covenant?</p>
<p> </p>
<p><a href="http://fulfilledtheology.ning.com/forum/topics/what-was-the-first-heaven-and-earth-passed-away-in-rev-21" target="_blank">http://fulfilledtheology.ning.com/forum/topics/what-was-the-first-h...</a></p> Hi Donald,
No. The word "k…tag:fulfilledtheology.ning.com,2012-05-10:5096844:Comment:60032012-05-10T13:41:16.873ZRiversOfEdenhttp://fulfilledtheology.ning.com/profile/RiversOfEden
<p>Hi Donald,</p>
<p> </p>
<p>No. The word "kosmos" (world) is referring to the inhabited "world" known to the ancient Israelites and Romans. It is a term that refers to "population" or geography; it is not a covenant word. Moreover, the Roman Empire governed most of the known "world" (hence, there was one "order" (kosmos) that included all the different nations, languages, and laws).</p>
<p> </p>
<p>At the time of the apostles, there were Israelites scattered "in every nation (gentiles)…</p>
<p>Hi Donald,</p>
<p> </p>
<p>No. The word "kosmos" (world) is referring to the inhabited "world" known to the ancient Israelites and Romans. It is a term that refers to "population" or geography; it is not a covenant word. Moreover, the Roman Empire governed most of the known "world" (hence, there was one "order" (kosmos) that included all the different nations, languages, and laws).</p>
<p> </p>
<p>At the time of the apostles, there were Israelites scattered "in every nation (gentiles) under heaven" (Acts 2:5) who spoke the many foreign languages from the regions where they were born (Acts 2:8). The reason the term "kosmos" (world) often includes Israel in scripture is because the Israelites were living throughout the world "order" of the Roman Empire (and not just in the Promised Land).</p>
<p> </p>
<p>The word "kosmos" could refer to the covenant people (Israel) living in the Promised Land because the Land was part of the Roman "world". However, the word "covenant people" could only refer to the Israelites (Jeremiah 31:31-34; Matthew 15:24; Romans 9:3-5) since God explicitly gave the promises only to "Abraham and his descendants" (Romans 4:16-18).</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Rivers :)</p>