Discussion All Areas Of Systematic Theology
Taffy gave me a list of questions and some of them I am not sure how to answer. He said go ahead and post here. I thought you might be willing to answer or something to discuss.
1. Do you believe human "nature" was different before Adam's time (4,000BC)? If yes, in what way?
2. Do you believe human "nature" was different after the parousia? e.g. in the children of the "church" or those referred to in Ac 17:26-28 who lived past the judgements? If yes, in what way?
3. Do you believe God's "nature" was different before 4,000BC? If yes, in what way?
4. Do you believe God's "nature" is different after 70AD? If yes, in what way?
5. Scripture says the "Law is spiritual" (Rom 7:14). When did humans first become "spiritual" and accountable for their actions? At Sinai, Ur, the Flood, the Garden, Gobekli Tepe, Africa, etc, etc?
6. Are humans still "spiritual"?
7. Do you believe men "sinned" before 4,000BC? If yes, against what "Law"? and what were their "wages"?
8. Do you believe men "sin" today? If yes, against what "Law"? and what are their "wages"?
9. Did the "righteous requirements" (Rom 2:26) of God's "spiritual" Law cease in 70AD? If yes, please point me to the scriptures. If no, what does that mean?
10. Scripturally there is a "profound silence" about ancient events; ice-ages, dinosaurs, continental shift, etc (just as there's a "profound silence" about post-parousia events). Does that mean there was no "ongoing reality" prior to 4,000BC?
11. I believe God's the "author" of human life as He is is of everything else (Ac 17:25) and He DOESN'T "change". He's the same NOW as He's ever been (Mal 3:6, James 1:17). If He DOESN'T "change" and scripture says He's "righteous" (Ex 9:27) and His "Law" is "spiritual" (Rom 7:14), what do you think that meant for pre-adamic "peoples" and also for post-parousia "peoples"?
His blog is in http://preterism-preterist-taffy.blogspot.co.uk/p/death.html
I would also agree that "the Bible doesn't mention pre-Adamic peoples."
However, the same scientific principles and methods that we use to validate, translate, and interpret the historical accounts of scripture also suggest that there is extra-biblical human history that precedes the records of "Adam's generations." Thus, to be consistent, I think we need to assume that there were human beings that existed before the creation of Adam.
The biblical writers seem to be referring to such people in certain texts (e.g. Genesis 4:16). Also, perhaps there would be no need to distinguish "the book of the generations of Adam" (Genesis 5:1) unless there were other historical or genealogical records that preceeded and/or coincided with biblical accounts.
Taffy and Rivers,
I am not saying that these peoples doesn't exist in the Bible. They were/are outside of the scope when the Bible was written. We don't have enough information about those people in the Bible but we can use other sources (archaeologists, scientists, historians, etc.) that can be helpful.
We're touching on an important issue here because we depend upon "archeologists, scientists, historians, etc." in order to demonstrate the validity of the historical records in scripture to begin with.
Although we can give preference to the "inspired" quality of biblical revelation, and recognize that it may be limited in purpose (Genesis 5:1) and geographic scope (Genesis 1:1 Genesis 15:18), we can't simply ignore other information that might be relevant to "history" that occurred beyond what is revealed in the Bible.
Afterall, it's rather obvious that there has been 2,000+ years of human history that has extended beyond the apostolic era (where the historical record of scripture ends).
Yes I agree.
Rivers, you agree that God's "nature"/character hasn't "changed" and that people "sinned" before Adam. Good. This is obvious.
1. i/ Against what "Law" did they "sin" (Rom 4:15, 1 Jn 3:4)? ii/ What do you believe the "penalty" was for their "sin" (Rom 6:23)?
iii/ Did the God who "changes not" (Mal 3:6, James 1:17) in fact "change" His "righteous requirements" (Rom 2:26) for pre-adamic peoples (Ps 11:7)? and also for pre-Sinai peoples?
2. Abraham was to, "..command his children AND his household after him (as well as circumcise them; Gen 17:12), that they keep the way of the LORD, to do righteousness and justice.." (Gen 18:19). What was the "way of the LORD"? and what "righteousness and justice" is being referred to?
3. Paul told his brethren, "if there had been a Law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the Law" (Gal 3:21). In what way do yo believe Abel, Noah, Melchizedek, and Abraham were called "righteous" even though they weren't Israelites and had no "written code" (Gen 7:1, 15:6, Matt 23:35, Heb 7:2)?
Don, we don't need everything spelt out for us in scripture as children.
The Bible says the "LORD is righteous" (Ps 11:7). As He doesn't "change" (Mal 3:6, James 1:17) we can sensibly conclude that He was "righteous" BEFORE 4,000BC and also is AFTER 70AD and that He still "hates iniquity".
We can also sensibly conclude that the seat of men's morality, intelligence, etc, is STILL his "spirit"/"heart".
What we need to ask ourselves is what do these things mean? Not just deny/scoff at everything that doesn't have the word "Israel" in it.
The problem with your reasoning is that it doesn't logically follow that because "God doesn't change" that He deals the same way with all people. Paul plainly stated that "to the Isarelites according to the flesh belong the covenants, the promises, the adoption of sons, and the glory" (Romans 9:3-5).
God also told the "sons of Israel" that He was holding them accountable the Law because they were "chosen above all the other people on the earth" (Amos 3:1-2). The same "God who doesn't change" also chose not to "impute sin when there (was) no Law" (Romans 5:12-14). The evidence suggests that God held the Israelites to a different (higher) standard than all the other people.
Is it a sin to race mix? Was the law given to Non-Jews? Was the great white throne Judgement for Non-Hebrews,Israelites,Jews? I have to agree with the Lads on this site!!! Where does the bibles say that Pagans must obey the law given to Moses? Is it a sin to kill in war when your government tells you to kill in a unjust war? If yes(why) In Lex Rex Christians are told to disobey government when the king is above his own laws...What do you do if the King is not a Christian and is killing your people? How do you define sin with a non- covenant people? There alot of questions i asked you but i have my reason....I want to see your Ethics and your Moral system based on Gods law,sin, to pagans and Christians.
Hi Rivers, you said, "The problem with your reasoning is that it doesn't logically follow that because 'God doesn't change' that He deals the same way with all people."
But Rivers, the problem with your reasoning is this:
If God is God and man is man and sin is sin, if the "Judge of all the earth is to do right" (Gen 18:25) how can He punish "sin" differently from one man to the next and still be "just"? "Does God subvert judgement? Or does the Almighty pervert justice?" (Job 8:3) This is what you accuse Him of.
Hi Timothy, please review my previous posts because I think you've missed my point. I have no-where said anyone but Israel was "accountable" to the "written code".
Hi guys, I've given more of my views about God 's "Law" and the nature of man's "soul" in one of my 'blogs' (see, "Soul").
I've posted it here as a new discussion and its awaiting Don's approval. But if anyone has any views on it in the meantime I'd much like to hear them.